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  1. #1
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    2016-17 Season thread

    Figured I'd start this with the new hockey year starting July 1st with free agency.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Oilers traded Hall to NJ for Larsson. I'm guessing more to this.

    Guessing Lucic will be an Oiler.

    I would have tried to keep Hall out of RNH Eberle and Hall.

    Edit: It's 1 for 1. Wow what are th Oilers doing.

    Also the top 5 picks from the 2010 draft have all been traded now.
    Last edited by two24four; 06-29-2016 at 02:43 PM.

  3. #3
    .. All-Star WIS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    Oilers traded Hall to NJ for Larsson. I'm guessing more to this.

    Guessing Lucic will be an Oiler.

    I would have tried to keep Hall out of RNH Eberle and Hall.

    Edit: It's 1 for 1. Wow what are th Oilers doing.

    Also the top 5 picks from the 2010 draft have all been traded now.
    Chiarelli is a tool. Didn't he learn from the Seguin trade? Just because he hosed the Leafs doesn't mean he could do it again. Seems like karma here.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Kypreos says Subban is going to NSH for Weber. Wow crazy!

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    What the hell is going on!! If true, good on the Canadiens.

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    Stamkos to remain in Tampa Bay.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    And McKenzie says Stamkos is staying is TB. Evertything is happening.

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    .. All-Star WIS's Avatar
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    July 1st will be

  9. #9
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    I am just glad Stamkos is not going to Buffalo.

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    .. All-Star WIS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    I am just glad Stamkos is not going to Buffalo.
    or Detroit!

    Subban for Weber straight up. Now we'll have to deal with the better defenceman.

  11. #11
    .. All-Star WIS's Avatar
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    So Stamkos did take the 8 years @ 8.5. Interesting.

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    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WIS View Post
    What the hell is going on!! If true, good on the Canadiens.
    I actually think Nashville makes out a little better. Weber is 30 and starting to slow down and signed for another 10 years. Subban is a little younger and can probably keep up better. Weber's a little cheaper on the cap, and better defensively, but Subban is significantly better on offense. It's close, but I would take Subban at this point in time.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star boredguy's Avatar
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    What a crazy afternoon. I understand that Oilers had to overpay but that's still not a good trade. And i take Subban over Weber 10 times out of 10.

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    Season Ticket Holder Hall of Famer Dubz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WIS View Post
    So Stamkos did take the 8 years @ 8.5. Interesting.

    Now they can trade him to TO on a sign and trade deal

    Wow Montreal pulled off a sweet deal...from what ive read it will be cheaper for them to buy out Weber than PK. I also think he is a better player and team mate.

    Hall for Larsson...hmmm. At first glance its a terrible trade for the Oil but considering that Hall is a crackhead disturbance in the room its a good deal (I cant believe people write this shit) On a more serious note im happy for Hall and think he will shine in NJ along with his buddy Adam. As for Larsson...who has played in that NJ system and put up decwent numbers will now have to somehow do that in the Oilers redzone LOLOLOLOL I simply dont see it happening. Heres a funny one i read over on SN

    someone needs to tell Chiarelli that he got ADAM Larson not Oilver-Ekman LOLOL
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    Season Ticket Holder Hall of Famer Dubz's Avatar
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    Loui Eriksson and Adam Larsson for Hall and Seguin....pretty sure thats what it boils down to.
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    Are we really trying to paint the NJD as that team that Oilers players want to go to to put up better numbers? You realize we're talking about the NHL's 2nd worst offense the last 3 years? Hall has no reason to celebrate, and Larsson should have no trouble putting up the same/better numbers.

    It just sounds exactly like everyone congratulating Eichel for dodging the Oilers bullet and going to Buffalo. The only offense worse than New Jersey the last 3 years. Sure enough that offense was still trash after O'Reily and Eichel arrived and Eichel was nowhere near as productive per game as McDavid on the Oilers (Which may have happened even if they swapped teams but it certainly discourages the idea that Buffalo is the superior place to put up numbers). I can't even somewhat fathom what improvement guys like Hall/Eichel are enjoying for being on the Sabres/Devils instead of the Oilers. I mean, at least Buffalo has a history to hang their hats on. New Jersey has ALWAYS been pathetic offensively and where is their next Scott Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur? He's not out there. That team's just gonna be a dweller for many years. Even when it was a place to win championships, you'd still dread being a star forward in NJ because you were never putting up numbers.

    If we're talking about Hall, Eichel's chances to win a cup (Which are still almost null and void on their current Buffalo/NJ squads), yes those chances go up outside of Edmenton. But their personal success and statistical accolades? I just don't see how the utterly and completely worthless offenses those other teams offer are any sort of upgrade to Edmenton. They all suck, they're all places where stats go to die.
    Last edited by Kyle; 06-30-2016 at 08:15 PM.

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    As side notes, incredibly dumb trade by Edmenton, and go Detroit on a brilliant salary dump.

    As far as PK vs Webber goes, I think that's a trade that we as fans are very arrogant to call "good" or "bad." How disrespectful is it to either of these guys to call it a great trade? When is it ever a great thing to lose PK or Webber? The simple fact is, it's one of the ultimate 50/50 trades in sports history, these are two of the 3 best in the game at their position with NO clear consensus whatsoever as to who deserves to be ranked ahead. They are as equal as equal gets and its purely an intangibles swap and a hope for better chemistry from both teams.

    Nashville gets the slightly higher ceiling, Montreal gets the more consistent defender. You will find some fans who think Weber is far better, others who think Subban is far better, but I think we're being arrogant to say this trade can't end up working out fantastically for both sides. And if it doesn't, it isn't because one of these two were way smarter than the other, its because they got plain lucky. WHich is why I'd never do a 50/50 swap like this as a GM, especially if I had the younger guy (Subban). We've seen 100% of what Webber has to offer and Subban might still have that extra notch, or at the very least as Hamster said more years in his prime.

    Does anyone think the Habs had an issue with such a media-friendly superstar

  18. #18
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Are we really trying to paint the NJD as that team that Oilers players want to go to to put up better numbers? You realize we're talking about the NHL's 2nd worst offense the last 3 years? Hall has no reason to celebrate, and Larsson should have no trouble putting up the same/better numbers.

    It just sounds exactly like everyone congratulating Eichel for dodging the Oilers bullet and going to Buffalo. The only offense worse than New Jersey the last 3 years. Sure enough that offense was still trash after O'Reily and Eichel arrived and Eichel was nowhere near as productive per game as McDavid on the Oilers (Which may have happened even if they swapped teams but it certainly discourages the idea that Buffalo is the superior place to put up numbers). I can't even somewhat fathom what improvement guys like Hall/Eichel are enjoying for being on the Sabres/Devils instead of the Oilers. I mean, at least Buffalo has a history to hang their hats on. New Jersey has ALWAYS been pathetic offensively and where is their next Scott Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur? He's not out there. That team's just gonna be a dweller for many years. Even when it was a place to win championships, you'd still dread being a star forward in NJ because you were never putting up numbers.

    If we're talking about Hall, Eichel's chances to win a cup (Which are still almost null and void on their current Buffalo/NJ squads), yes those chances go up outside of Edmenton. But their personal success and statistical accolades? I just don't see how the utterly and completely worthless offenses those other teams offer are any sort of upgrade to Edmenton. They all suck, they're all places where stats go to die.
    You're really selling NJ's offense short from a historical perspective. Sure, they had a HOF goalie, the strength of their team was from the net out, and their reputation was defense, but their offense wasn't as bad as you might think. Parise had a few PPG years and they had a bunch of years where they were in the top third in goals for, some where they led the league in scoring. They didn't have a handful of guys with 80 points but they spread it out. It's easy to remember the 1-0 wins and their shutdown defense. This is also a new regime. Lou clearly liked to build a team concept. It seems like they want to play a more open game and they're trying to acquire players to do so.


  19. #19
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    As side notes, incredibly dumb trade by Edmenton, and go Detroit on a brilliant salary dump.

    As far as PK vs Webber goes, I think that's a trade that we as fans are very arrogant to call "good" or "bad." How disrespectful is it to either of these guys to call it a great trade? When is it ever a great thing to lose PK or Webber? The simple fact is, it's one of the ultimate 50/50 trades in sports history, these are two of the 3 best in the game at their position with NO clear consensus whatsoever as to who deserves to be ranked ahead. They are as equal as equal gets and its purely an intangibles swap and a hope for better chemistry from both teams.

    Nashville gets the slightly higher ceiling, Montreal gets the more consistent defender. You will find some fans who think Weber is far better, others who think Subban is far better, but I think we're being arrogant to say this trade can't end up working out fantastically for both sides. And if it doesn't, it isn't because one of these two were way smarter than the other, its because they got plain lucky. WHich is why I'd never do a 50/50 swap like this as a GM, especially if I had the younger guy (Subban). We've seen 100% of what Webber has to offer and Subban might still have that extra notch, or at the very least as Hamster said more years in his prime.

    Does anyone think the Habs had an issue with such a media-friendly superstar
    Most of the sane criticism that I've seen about the trade has to do with having to pay Weber for another 10 years until he's 40. That overshadows the slight cap savings on a yearly basis.


  20. #20
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Are we really trying to paint the NJD as that team that Oilers players want to go to to put up better numbers? You realize we're talking about the NHL's 2nd worst offense the last 3 years? Hall has no reason to celebrate, and Larsson should have no trouble putting up the same/better numbers.

    It just sounds exactly like everyone congratulating Eichel for dodging the Oilers bullet and going to Buffalo. The only offense worse than New Jersey the last 3 years. Sure enough that offense was still trash after O'Reily and Eichel arrived and Eichel was nowhere near as productive per game as McDavid on the Oilers (Which may have happened even if they swapped teams but it certainly discourages the idea that Buffalo is the superior place to put up numbers). I can't even somewhat fathom what improvement guys like Hall/Eichel are enjoying for being on the Sabres/Devils instead of the Oilers. I mean, at least Buffalo has a history to hang their hats on. New Jersey has ALWAYS been pathetic offensively and where is their next Scott Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur? He's not out there. That team's just gonna be a dweller for many years. Even when it was a place to win championships, you'd still dread being a star forward in NJ because you were never putting up numbers.

    If we're talking about Hall, Eichel's chances to win a cup (Which are still almost null and void on their current Buffalo/NJ squads), yes those chances go up outside of Edmenton. But their personal success and statistical accolades? I just don't see how the utterly and completely worthless offenses those other teams offer are any sort of upgrade to Edmenton. They all suck, they're all places where stats go to die.
    Mostly because there's a pattern Edmonton has of ruining their top-flight prospects that NJ and BUF don't have. Gagner, Paajarvi, RNH, Yakupov... Even Hall, while successful, never really achieved the potential he was thought to have when he was drafted. In fact, if we consider the rookies to be too early to judge, only Eberle really can be considered to have met expectations for the Oilers since the 2001 draft, with Hall perhaps coming close at times. Even their deeper draft picks fail at an alarming rate.

    O'Reilly had a career year, offensively, for the Sabres. Ditto for Kyle Palmieri in NJ. Eichel showed steady improvement as he adjusted to the NHL over the course of the year and was sheltered less and less. McDavid, meanwhile, suffered an extended injury for the second straight year. Can't necessarily blame that on the Oilers, but it's just how things seem to go for their prospects...

    All that said, Hall clearly wanted to stay in Edmonton, though not out of any concern for his individual numbers. He wanted to finish what he started in turning the Oilers fortunes around after having invested so much time and effort into that goal. I think he'll do incredible in Jersey.
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  21. #21
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    I wasn't implying that O'Reilly/Eichel had bad years. Simply that it didn't turn the Sabres into a good team or even a decent one. And so it only goes as far as you can guarantee someone will play with those two guys, because on the other 3 lines, you're playing for one of the worst teams imaginable. Oilers can offer anyone the same treat on the top line, if not much more-so with McDavid and Eberle. Plenty of players have had plenty of good seasons on their top line over these miserable years. We still call them a shitty team and a miserable offense because a few guys scoring 70+ pts doesn't change how weak the team is through all 4 lines. For the most part, that's criticism fits Buffalo/NJ exactly, simply not to the same extents some years. Right now, it fits just fine to me.

    Doc, fair enough on NJ's offense historically, but I still stand by what they are today.

    Either way, I don't think upgrading from the worst offense to the 2nd/3rd worse offense makes anyone happy about their chances to "shine" individually. Which was basically what the crux of my argument was in response to. The Devils are better, Hall's chances to win a cup are better, but his chances to shine? Not at all. There's nothing wrong with being in a system that discourages star seasons. Detroit won many years with that system. But you certainly wouldn't say that system promotes an individual's chances to shine. Players that came to Detroit during those years typically had among their career's lowest production. A lot of them just capped off their resumes with a cup while letting their stints on other teams speak louder of their talent. Nidermayer's best two seasons came at age 33/34 on the Ducks. Who knows what kind of seasons he could've had in his prime on any other team but the Devils and that trap system.

    Nothing wrong with those teams where stats go to die. They lift banners perfectly often, but players don't shine nor does their brand/salary tend to benefit.

    I won't argue a point about their bad fortune. That is what it is, I don't believe in luck. And I think the McDavid mention was a touch on the cheap side, because he worked out just fine his rookie year and has clearly already emerged to be a player of a caliber that the Devils or Sabres couldn't dream of having on their roster right now. His half season almost out-produced Eichel's full year so I really think you had to reach miles and miles to use that as an example of why prospects don't work for Edmenton. It would be far easier to use McDavid as a sign of positive things to come.
    Last edited by Kyle; 07-01-2016 at 12:12 PM.

  22. #22
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamsterkill View Post
    Mostly because there's a pattern Edmonton has of ruining their top-flight prospects that NJ and BUF don't have. Gagner, Paajarvi, RNH, Yakupov... Even Hall, while successful, never really achieved the potential he was thought to have when he was drafted.
    Do you think that's the fault of Edmonton not developing the players or do you think that the players weren't as good as advertised? Maybe somewhere in the middle? Talent often eventually shows up and a lot of those players just don't look as good as we thought.


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    I think he'll do incredible in Jersey.
    Why? He goes from a line with McDavid and Eberle to Henrique/Palmieri and you're using phrases like "He'll do incredible" and "he'll shine." Are we being serious or is the general consensus that any move away from Edmenton has to work out positively in every way? You even go as far as implying Hall is a bust/letdown which is just completely outrageous to me. His per game paces are top 10 among active players since he joined the league and is probably more like top 5 since his 2nd year. He struggles to stay healthy, are we attacking Edmenton's team nutritionist now? You can spit that whole bit about "not quite as good as people hoped" in regards to an endless list of the top prospects over the last 15 years. All the top offensive guys coming out the last 10-15 years haven't put up the kind of seasons we envisioned they would coming into the league. Literally EVERY one of them except Ovechkin/Crosby have failed to hit the kind of offensive marks we hoped for as they got drafted top 3. Doesn't make them (or Hall) busts, it simply makes us responsible for adjusting our standards relative to the decreased production around the league.

    Hall is a top 10-15 offensive player when healthy, nothing else needs to be said about the guy to say he worked out just fine, not debatable at all to me. I don't recall anybody saying Hall was supposed to be the next Gretzky. He did not have Crosby/Ovy/McDavid level hype going into his draft. More like a Tavares/Kane level talent and he has certainly emerged to be that good despite the shit surrounding him in Edmenton.
    Last edited by Kyle; 07-01-2016 at 12:24 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    Do you think that's the fault of Edmonton not developing the players or do you think that the players weren't as good as advertised? Maybe somewhere in the middle? Talent often eventually shows up and a lot of those players just don't look as good as we thought.
    Honestly, I don't recall people calling most of those picks mistakes at the time. Obviously the trend has commonly been they don't try hard enough to find D-men but besides that, most of the picks that haven't worked out seemed perfectly appropriate at the time. To me, its just players not working out, but you can't count out a losing culture and how much it hurts motivation.

    FWIW, I firmly believe teams can only slow down or speed up a player towards reaching their potential. There's little a team can do to turn some would-be star into a bust. That's on a player.
    Last edited by Kyle; 07-01-2016 at 12:32 PM.

  25. #25
    Season Ticket Holder Hall of Famer Dubz's Avatar
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    Admitting Hall had decent players in EDM is one thing....trying to say he will not put up #s in NJ because the linemates arent as good/the system isnt the same (what fucking system do they play in EDM anyways) is ridick imo. He is uber talented, will play top minutes and PP1. His numbers wont suffer much if at all. But i guess we will see. My point is Larsson will have a harder time keeping his numbers up than will Hall.
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    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    I wasn't implying that O'Reilly/Eichel had bad years. Simply that it didn't turn the Sabres into a good team or even a decent one. And so it only goes as far as you can guarantee someone will play with those two guys, because on the other 3 lines, you're playing for one of the worst teams imaginable.
    Eichel and O'Reilly played separate lines.
    I won't argue a point about their bad fortune. That is what it is, I don't believe in luck. And I think the McDavid mention was a touch on the cheap side, because he worked out just fine his rookie year and has clearly already emerged to be a player of a caliber that the Devils or Sabres couldn't dream of having on their roster right now. His half season almost out-produced Eichel's full year so I really think you had to reach miles and miles to use that as an example of why prospects don't work for Edmenton. It would be far easier to use McDavid as a sign of positive things to come.
    I was merely pointing out the pattern. Some of that may be luck, but the pattern is lengthy enough for me to believe the Oilers also just suck at developing their players.
    Why? Honestly, what even begins to support this notion? He goes from a line with McDavid and Eberle to Henrique/Palmieri and you're using phrases like "He'll do incredible" and "he'll shine." Is anyone even trying to be objective or is the general consensus that any move away from Edmenton has to work out positively in every way? Silliness. You even go as far as implying Hall is a bust/letdown which is just completely outrageous to me. His per game paces are top 10 among active players since he joined the league and is probably more like top 5 since his 2nd year. He struggles to stay healthy, are we attacking Edmenton's team nutritionist now?
    Honestly? Maybe. I think there has to be something they're doing wrong with their kids.

    Hall has never been in the Top 5 for PPG in any season he's played. He's been top-10 twice. The last two years he finished 37 and 68. Team Canada has also not selected him to any Olympics teams or the upcoming World Cup.

    You have to account for how a team is trending. Jersey is looking like a team on the rise. Buffalo is looking like a team on the rise. Edmonton is not, despite McDavid. Henrique is also a player Hall enjoyed much success with in Junior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    Do you think that's the fault of Edmonton not developing the players or do you think that the players weren't as good as advertised? Maybe somewhere in the middle? Talent often eventually shows up and a lot of those players just don't look as good as we thought.
    Probably a mix. Sure some players are just busts, but the pattern is so long and runs so deep in their drafts for Edmonton that I have trouble believing they don't have a hand in it.
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  27. #27
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    Let's see a healthy season from McDavid, another draft class added to their roster (Okay, even I laughed a bit typing that), another year of development, and see if the Oilers are on the rise or not. We can't say McDavid wasn't enough just yet.

    but the pattern is so long and runs so deep in their drafts for Edmonton that I have trouble believing they don't have a hand in it.
    This is the hardest point for me to argue against. It's become either a statistical miracle or clear evidence that they're doing something awfully wrong.

  28. #28
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    My question was referring to someone like Daigle, who was clearly a bust. Chances are that they didn't draft Daigle all of those years in a row, though.


  29. #29
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Here are some signings:

    EDIT: Just go here:

    http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/nh...gest-signings/
    Last edited by Doctego; 07-01-2016 at 01:26 PM.


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    Wow. Radulov to the Habs eh. Really wanted Detroit to get him. Its 5.75m, 1 year, btw.

    Detroit reportedly were only willing to offer 5m. And yet they just extended Darren Helm at 4m/year and 5.25 for Nielson. I like Radulov quite a bit more than both, despite the risk he carries.
    Last edited by Kyle; 07-01-2016 at 01:29 PM.

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