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  1. #211
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    BUF fired both Tim Murray and Dan Bylsma. Wow. Guess some of the stuff talked about yesterday was true. He better hope he likes his next coach.
    Wonder who they're thinking about for GM now. Murray wasn't among the best, but he wasn't bad, either. (please not Lombardi, please not Lombardi...)
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  2. #212
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chgorman View Post
    What have you seen that would make you think that? I think he'd make a decent captain, just not yet, maybe in a couple yrs after wearing an A for a few seasons. I also don't follow BUF super closely anymore, so maybe I've missed something negative that he's done/said, but he seems to say the right things in interviews and seems to set a good example on the ice from the few BUF games I've watched that he's played in...
    He seems prickly and emotional in the not good way. I don't mean to suggest he would be a poor choice, I am saying I don't understand why he is the presumed choice when you have a guy like O'Reilly. (the reason is to not bruise Eichel's ego...which is stupid)

    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    I'm not sure I would want to risk pissing him off by giving someone else the C over him if I'm the Sabres. He's going to see the two guys he's most compared to around the league McDavid and Matthews (I fully expect Matthews to be named Leafs Captain before next season) have the C on their jersey's. The last thing you want is to piss off your franchise player.


    With saying that he does seem to let things get to him more than these other players. He gets so snarly when asked about McDavid/Matthews while the others just seem to brush off the same questions.
    ...and that is what annoys me. If the guy is truly Captain material, he would put the team above himself and not sulk or whatever. Not saying he would sulk necessarily, but I suspect he would, and that, to me, would make him unworthy of wearing the 'C'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    I'd call these concerns over Eichel fairly unfounded. The idea that "Well, he's not a Toews or Zetterberg" could be used against him is just brutal. The league has far more captains like Eichel than captains like them Half the captains in the league are questionable personalities. Eichel is not on the wrong side of the list. As an extremely young guy he'd already fit right in near the middle can only mature from here. Maybe he does become one of those character guys we truly respect. But that's really the exception more than the rule.

    http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag..._captains.html

    I personally think people overthink the subject of captaincy entirely. It's really not such a big deal and a team having the wrong captain isn't the ticking time bomb that people like to think it is. It hardly heightens expectations at all for an individual with the small exception of big markets like NY or Toronto. Whether Eichel is named captain or not has nothing to do with his progression as a player nor does it change the way his teammates will perceive and learn from him (or mentor him). The rest of the team won't try any differently if they disagree with Eichels promotion.

    Leaders will lead regardless who the captain is. I don't see the issue with Eichel being made captain at all. The only valid issue here is the fact that if he IS immature, not making him captain could be a huge blow to his psyche. This is Buffalo, nobody is going to be raking him over the coals if he doesn't bring immediate benefits. He won't be getting the vicious treatment NY and Toronto can put athletes through, its simply not possible. Buffalo isn't going to ruin a franchise player's head.

    It'd really be unwise to delay the inevitable. Give him the C.
    Why is it brutal? Naming a kid the Captain is fucked in and of itself (I love McDavid, and he's SPECIAL in every way, but they still should have waited a year or two...it's not like someone HAS TO WEAR the 'C') but he's not Toews or Zetterberg and that's because he hasn't been around long enough to prove himself the way Toews and Zets did in earning their C's. You don't give the Captaincy to someone who *might* grow into it, you give it the fucking guy that everyone on the team looks up to. I don't think many of Eichel's look up to him the way McDavid's or even Matthews teammates to.

    Sure, leaders will lead regardless but you're deluding yourself if you think that it's good for a team to give the captaincy to someone who has yet to earn it...and if Hamster is right, someone not everyone likes. That has terrible team chemistry written all over it.

    Who is chosen to wear the 'C' is a VERY BIG DEAL dude!

    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    In Baseball, Football, Basketball etc... I don't think being the Captain is a big deal. But your kidding yourself if you think being a captain in hockey isn't a big deal. It's a huge deal to the players and most fans. It's a big honour to hockey players to be named captain of their team.
    Agree 1000%

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    And my opinion is thats just you romanticizing your favorite sport. Especially when you can agree it doesn't matter in all the others, its absurd to think it matters in hockey, and totally disrespectful to professional athletes to act like any damn bit of their performance hinges on who has a C on their jersey.

    It matters in Toronto because you guys are 12 miles beyond unhealthy about your hockey obsession lol. Its a huge honor to you fans and the players have to play the part because you'll destroy them if they don't.
    With all due respect, have you ever played on a hockey team before? As you are from FLA, I'm thinking no and if yes, then team dynamics were maybe different from those in hockey mkts/Canada where it is a very big deal to wear the 'C' and most who wear it well understand the responsibilities and duties that come with it. It's about who the coach thinks can lead the team, not who is the best player on the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamsterkill View Post
    Like I said, a team could do worse than Eichel. I just think Buffalo has better options for the near-term.


    Having suffered through the leaderless mess that was the Sabres after Drury and Briere left, I have to disagree that having bad leadership isn't a problem. Buffalo is not as bad as Toronto or NY, but they're really not far behind. Their press follow the same school of thought as the ones from the big city, while being significantly dumber in most cases. This results in a hefty amount of uneducated criticism being leveled at stars and team leaders whenever there's a question about them, and that can get to a young player that's still maturing. As for team perception, my concern is more about how Eichel perceives himself. Being made captain may put it into his head that he doesn't need mentoring.


    Sorry, but that's decidedly not the case. Just look at what's happening to Reinhart right now.

    Like I said, I'm not against increasing his responsibility in leadership. He doesn't have a letter of any kind right now, and I'm fine with making him an alternate. I'd even be okay with letting him be co-captain. He's just not ready to shoulder it on his own. Even as not captain, just look at the kinds of things he can inspire in the media with the report today that he supposedly didn't want to negotiate an extension as long as Bylsma is coach. That's not the kind of attitude you want to encourage if you're Buffalo. It will only lead to more problems down the road, especially with the Buffalo media.
    Yes

    Yes

    (and) Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by chgorman View Post

    B_ was talking as if Eichel was the 2nd coming of E.Kane in all the worst ways, which clearly isn't the case.
    No, that was the inference you perceived based on the bias you have towards me

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Last edited by b_illin; 04-20-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #213
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    It's about who the coach thinks can lead the team,
    This is where you nor anyone else will ever persuade me. This idea that one singular person is actually leading athletes in professional sports is nonsense to me. If anyone could ever make that claim, its ONLY a coach or literally the most extreme exceptions on the planet like Lebron James who runs every aspect of his team's on-court product from personnel to strategy. Those are rare cases.

    Hockey players don't look to one person, they look to a group. Sure, the guy wearing the C autta be somebody part of that leadership group, but history has shown teams can do just as well sticking the C on their star player and calling it a day. Seriously, how weak minded are we assuming hockey players are? They can't suck it up, understand why the wrong guy wears a C, and use their common sense and own moral compass to decide who is worth looking up to and who isn't on the team?

    I never said the wrong C can't hurt a team. I said the impact is minimal, and not nearly as bad as ruining a guy's mentality by not giving him the C and planting seeds in his head that you consider him immature, etc. Buffalo has seriously little to lose by promoting Eichel early.

    I hear all you guys, I simply don't agree. Crosby isn't a leader. Nobody in Pittsburgh is complaining.

    Also, I don't think you understand that this is literally almost always the way it works in rebuilds man. Your Zetterberg only gets to wait 10-15 years for the C when you have an Yzerman or Lidstrom ahead of him and when you have those guys you aren't rebuilding. Buffalo is rebuilding because those guys don't exist in their recent history.

    Pens had to rebuild, Crosby was captain early. Hawks had to rebuild, Toews was captain early. Caps had to rebuild, Ovechkin was captain early. McDavid is going to be captain early. Eichel should be captain early. It works that way because its BEST that way, whether the guy is ready (Toews) or not (Crosby) you force his hand in leading the rebuild. Its all about Eichel in Buffalo, period. Nothing else makes sense except promoting him sometime in the next year or two,

    PS - No offense taken, I never played hockey at any noteworthy level, just some roller leagues in Florida. By the time I learned how to skate I just wasn't as much into playing it as before.
    Last edited by Kyle; 04-20-2017 at 02:08 PM.

  4. #214
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    BTW - Of course if a guy is a problem he shouldn't wear the C. A little bit of immaturity isn't a problem to me, its status quo at his age and promoting him might just speed up his maturation process.

    I have to side with Chg in that the message from the "he shouldn't wear it" camp heavily suggests Eichel is some detrimental personality, but maybe I'm misreading as well. Don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but it did feel that way.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Hall of Famer phaneuf6's Avatar
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    Matt Duchene and Ryan O'Reilly were both really pissed when Landeskog was given the C in Colorado, FWIW.

  6. #216
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Yeah that was one I thought was a little too soon. I know he was a great leader in Jr and I'm sure he would have been given the C at some point down the road but they really did not need to give it to him when they did. The Avs have bigger problems then that right now though.

  7. #217
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamsterkill View Post
    Wonder who they're thinking about for GM now. Murray wasn't among the best, but he wasn't bad, either. (please not Lombardi, please not Lombardi...)
    haha. I have already heard his name a few times from the insiders today. One guy I would get right a way if Calgary doesn't resign him is Treliving. Calgary should resign him though. There is so many names out there right now. Some who have been GM's and some who are close to being 1st time GM's.

    Think they would bring back Ruff to coach?
    Last edited by two24four; 04-20-2017 at 05:08 PM.

  8. #218
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Crosby isn't a leader.
    You can say he was made captain too early and I won't argue with you. You can't say he isn't a leader, though. Crosby is the leader for that team. And that's for better and worse -- you can see that the Pens take on Sid's mental state in games where he gets frustrated and games where he maintains his focus with intensity. As Sid goes, so do the Pens go most of the time.

    I do think Crosby was made captain too early and that old man Roberts probably would have been a better choice that year. I will note that the Pens actually wanted to give Crosby the C sooner and Sid refused it because he didn't think he was ready then. Eichel's attitude actually reminds me a lot of Crosby in his early years. Crosby at least benefited from always having Lemieux around, though, as an unquestionable source of mentoring. Sid also recognized he needed more maturity if he was going to wear the C and actually took a leap forward in maturity the first season he wore it. It's possible Eichel could do the same, I just don't see the need to chance it.

    EDIT: I'll also note that Ovechkin wasn't named captain until midway through 2009-10. He was 24. That's not that early.
    Last edited by Hamsterkill; 04-20-2017 at 05:16 PM.
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  9. #219
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    haha. I have already heard his name a few times from the insiders today. One guy I would get right a way if Calgary doesn't resign him is Treliving. Calgary should resign him though. There is so many names out there right now. Some who have been GM's and some who are close to being 1st time GM's.

    Think they would bring back Ruff to coach?
    They might. Pegula still likes him, I hear. I think he will probably leave the coaching hire to whomever they hire for GM, though.

    And yes, it's inevitable that Lombardi would get consideration. Having heard how he assembled Team USA, though, he doesn't seem an attractive option to me. Even the two Cups with LA don't inspire much confidence in me considering how up and down they were season-to-season.

    After Lombardi, the name I've seen thrown around most is Chris Drury, both for the nostalgia factor and because he's apparently seen as a skilled assistant with the Rangers with a GM ahead of him that doesn't look likely to be vacating the position any time soon. Not sure he'd want to leave the Rangers organization, though.
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  10. #220
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Jason Botterill is another name getting thrown around today.

  11. #221
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    Jason Botterill is another name getting thrown around today.
    Yeah, Botterill was in the running when they hired Murray, too.
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    Ovechkin wasn't that early but relative to his maturation process he was still far behind where a captain should be at 24. Ovechkin was still a knee-jerking dirty moron at 24 who still hadn't learned to stop leaving his feet 2-3 times every game. In fairness to him, he has made a way more dramatic turnaround into a mature leader than I ever would've guessed back then. Ovy to me acts the part better than Crosby but there's simply no comparing the effort and product on the ice that Ovy gives to the magic Crosby provides night in and night out.

    In response to Landeskog, that's a very fair point, but Landeskog was never truly the guy in Colorado. My point has more or less been "Sure, choose captains wisely, but when a truly wise choice isn't there, choose the franchise superstar." And during rebuilds, that option is rarely there, because its hard to be an obvious leader during a 4-6 year stretch of terrible seasons.

    If Colorado made MacKinnon captain and people got outraged over that, I would be really interested. My sincere guess is it would've gone over just fine because MacKinnon is the obvious franchise guy. Landeskog isn't. But its still a very fair point because it does show players care.

    Hamster, was Sid captain or not when he pulled that ridiculous bit of bullshit vs Flyers when Pens lost in round 1? If we was a C then, I refuse to accept he was any more mature than the day he entered the NHL when he was made captain, because that guy was as much of a punk as I've ever seen in hockey. I'm sincerely asking btw, I really don't know. If he wasn't captain then yet, I'm certainly willing to accept that he matured a bit. Obviously he still eventually matured either way but I won't accept that the process started until after that ridiculous series, so if that was year 1/2 as C, then he took at least that long to figure it out.

    I wasn't calling him a bad captain, because his example speaks louder than words, but his personality is absolutely unfit to lead men in the traditional sense. If Crosby were an average NHLer there'd be a 0% chance he'd be a captain of any team, he would've been a major personality project to get over his early sense of entitlement and whiny behavior and if he ever pushed through that then good for him but he would never be on his way to leading men. He leads because he's unquestionably the best in the game for 6-7 years now. Short of that he isn't inspiring anyone. But please note I said he's not a leader, not that he's a bad captain, because I actually think he's a phenomenal captain, because the results speak for themselves. My point is that non-leaders are fine as captains if their play sets the example, hence my inclination to just give it to franchise superstars.

    Toews and Zetterberg are good captains even as 30 pt 4th liners. You don't need that quality in the guy wearing a C. That's why I felt its a brutal thing to compare all captains too, btw, I_llin. Its like saying a guy isn't a sniper because he can't score like Ovechkin. Its a harsh standard and players can succeed without meeting it. The league doesn't have those guys sitting around in excess, but almost every franchise has its star.
    Last edited by Kyle; 04-20-2017 at 06:28 PM.

  13. #223
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    He was captain for that series, yes. He's actually been captain for every playoff berth of the Pens' steak. Note I didn't say he was immediately mature when he got the C, I said he took a leap in maturity. He's only been fully mature for the past few seasons now. The day-to-day punk stuff stopped when he got the C. After that it would take frustration to bring that out, which is what happened in the Philly series you mentioned.

    But that's kind of my point in saying he is the leader of that team. Sid got frustrated and so did the rest of the team after him. Sid leads and the team follows. That's the definition of a leader. Like I said, it doesn't always work out for the best, but the team is unarguably Sid's. Even when he's injured, he's the leader. I'm not sure if that's the definition you were using?
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  14. #224
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Soooo who had Chicago going out in the 1st round in 4? Preds look good.

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    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    The Preds looked so fast and so good. They didn't let up at all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamsterkill View Post
    He was captain for that series, yes. He's actually been captain for every playoff berth of the Pens' steak. Note I didn't say he was immediately mature when he got the C, I said he took a leap in maturity. He's only been fully mature for the past few seasons now. The day-to-day punk stuff stopped when he got the C. After that it would take frustration to bring that out, which is what happened in the Philly series you mentioned.

    But that's kind of my point in saying he is the leader of that team. Sid got frustrated and so did the rest of the team after him. Sid leads and the team follows. That's the definition of a leader. Like I said, it doesn't always work out for the best, but the team is unarguably Sid's. Even when he's injured, he's the leader. I'm not sure if that's the definition you were using?
    Yeah, you seem to nail it in that we're arguing different interpretations of what a leader is. I definitely hear your side and agree that as Sid goes, the Pens follow fully.

    Chicago getting outed was hugely shocking, for sure. Rinne had one of the best playoff series I've ever seen and I don't think that's any exaggeration.

    You can allow 3 goals in one game to Chicago and still play well. To allow 3 goals combined in 4 games is just unheard of in this era.

  17. #227
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
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    It's easy to discount how important the right leadership is within a team/organization/company/etc until there is a moment or event where having the right leadership dictates how the team etc responds. Hamster's example with Crosby speaks to this. I see the captain as the #2 voice in the room after the head coach... And sometimes he's the #1 voice if the room doesn't respect the coach's voice anymore (or he has to be forceful slapping personalities around if they aren't listening to the coach etc)


    When you go to war you need good leadership!

  18. #228
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Some coach's leave the room to the players. They let the captain take charge while they are in there. Like b_ said so it's a different voice rather than the coach barking at them.

    I knew one OHL captain years ago who would make sure his teammates were in by curfew even though that wasn't his job.

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    Wideman deserves to pay every penny Henderson is asking from him. I still think the reduction to 10 games was one of the stupidest disciplinary decisions in NHL history. 20 games was already far too lenient for one of the worst attacks of an official in any major US sport history.That arbitrator who reduced it is an enormous douche nozzle because it set such an irresponsible precedent.

    It still shocks me that people were generously naive enough to suggest he accidentally did that in the midst of a concussion. How many tens of thousands of concussions have we (knowingly or unknowingly) watched athletes receive in the history of American sports? And how many of them reacted by destroying a ref with a blatant, intentional hit, not "running into someone and protecting himself in the follow through" but a terrible crosscheck.

    Even if Wideman was in the midst of a blackout and thought it was the other team, the lawsuit is valid because it's such an unheard of, moronic, and reckless reaction. And this is giving him the benefit of a doubt. Its still perfectly valid to believe, as the lawsuit claims, that Wideman simply attacked the ref. There's no reason NOT to think it except that Wideman was a longterm vet who had no history. Video evidence speaks substantially louder than history.
    Last edited by Kyle; 04-22-2017 at 12:19 AM.

  20. #230
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Had a dream the Sabres hired Pierre McGuire to GM. I was unnerved.
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    Can't get much worse man, this rebuild is starting to stall out. I think a fresh blast of Pierre is just what Buffalo needs.

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    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Can't get much worse man, this rebuild is starting to stall out. I think a fresh blast of Pierre is just what Buffalo needs.
    I know that a lot of people wouldn't mind, since that would get him off of TV. I don't mind him, though. He clearly knows and loves the game.


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    Yeah, all jokes aside, I wouldn't be devastated by that hire as a fan of some franchises. I wouldn't be giddy about it, but I'd have an open mind.

    I've never hated McGuire, but he certainly is a very easy guy to dislike. He seems genuinely decent, just totally lame and annoying when he tries to be funny, clever, or insightful. As an analyst you have to be one of those 3 things sometimes so I think he's just plain bad as a TV personality.

    Certainly knows a ton about hockey.

  24. #234
    Geek Extraordinaire Hall of Famer Hamsterkill's Avatar
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    Knowing a lot about hockey isn't the only qualification for a GM, though. He hasn't held a managerial role since he was an assistant GM for Hartford in the 90s.
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    Yeah, I wouldn't be excited about it at all, but I wouldn't hate it if my team was already poorly managed.

    In fairness once you're down that road you might as well hire any one of dozens of ex-players as GM.

  26. #236
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    Joe Thornton was playing through a torn MCL and ACL. Tough SOB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    Joe Thornton was playing through a torn MCL and ACL. Tough SOB.
    Wow. A moment of silence for his liver.

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    Its like Ovechkin is doomed to watch Crosby accomplish all the things he never will in the playoffs. Its sad because Ovy always plays really well against Sid and the Pens but Crosby always manages to be a bit better.

    Wrong start for Washington for sure. They're writing the book so far through two rounds on how to totally nullify your own top seed and home ice advantage.

  29. #239
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Once again, Philly can't beat the Devils. I can't complain, though. I'd like to see them get a solid forward. Any thoughts on who you guys like?


  30. #240
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    So glad that did not happen last year to the Leafs. Phew. Philly going from 13 to 2 is crazy.

    Nolan Patrick has been the top prospect all year. Nico Hischier is a close 2nd. Either one could go 1st. They are not on the same level as McDavid/Eichel or Matthews/Laine though.
    Last edited by two24four; 04-29-2017 at 07:40 PM.

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