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Thread: Manny retires?

  1. #31
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    I have heard media members who have a vote say on the radio etc.... that they will not be voting for Bonds to get in, most of the media just don't like him.
    That's where these assholes need to get off of their high horses. If they don't think his numbers warrant election, fine (although they would be idiots to think that). If they don't want to elect him because he juiced, fine. If they don't want to elect him because they don't like him, that's moronic.


  2. #32
    not really All-Star ih8music's Avatar
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    I know I'm in the minority here, but I really think the HOF voters have no choice but to consider this to be the PED era, and elect the best player(s) of this era into the Hall. It's not like Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, A-Rod, etc. were the only ones to have "cheated" -- they're just the most prominent guys to have gotten caught. But I can assure you, up and down the roster of every major and minor league team, you have guys using legal and illegal PEDs, supplements, etc. that were virtually unavailable in prior years.

    Also - let's not forget that that use of speed & barbituates was pretty rampant in MLB clubhouses during the 70's & 80's. Should we put an asterisk next to those guys' numbers because they were taking drugs to overcome the schedule & travel grind? No one got caught back then because no one was testing. MLB didn't care -- just like they didn't care about steroids until public/gov't pressure made them care.

  3. #33
    Go Bolts Hall of Famer dw13's Avatar
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    I don't really have an opinion either way, I merely argue what the HOF voters will do, not what I think they should do, I suppose.



  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ih8music View Post
    Also - let's not forget that that use of speed & barbituates was pretty rampant in MLB clubhouses during the 70's & 80's. Should we put an asterisk next to those guys' numbers because they were taking drugs to overcome the schedule & travel grind?
    There was a time when black players weren't allowed to play, yet players in the majors during that time are in the hall of fame. There was a time when a win was given to the starting pitcher of the game rather than the pitcher who was pitching at the actual winning inning. Yet those records were never altered based on the rules used today.

    Baseball is full of asterisks, but for some reason people only want to point out that guys like Bonds juiced and their records are tarnished and they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. It's silly IMO

  5. #35
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eff1ngham View Post
    There was a time when black players weren't allowed to play, yet players in the majors during that time are in the hall of fame. There was a time when a win was given to the starting pitcher of the game rather than the pitcher who was pitching at the actual winning inning. Yet those records were never altered based on the rules used today.

    Baseball is full of asterisks, but for some reason people only want to point out that guys like Bonds juiced and their records are tarnished and they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. It's silly IMO
    For me, it's about 2 wrongs not making a right. If something is wrong in the past, we can either continue to do the same shit or we can attempt to rectify it moving forward. Using your black players example, at least you can say that everyone was on a level playing field in that they all played against white players. Making the HOF from that era simply means that you were the best of the best against the white players. Still sucks but consistent. With PED use, there's no consistency.


  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawinna13 View Post
    Manny is an idiot. Bonds is an idiot. Sosa is an idiot. Not just because it makes you a cheat, because of the health effects as well.
    They are only idiots because they got "caught". That's it. Anyone who believes that a majority of MLB wasn't on some kind of performance enhancing substance (legal at the time or not) is become ridiculously ignorant.

    Using steroids doesn't make you an idiot, fuck, I doubt most of these guys even felt they had a choice. If it was between getting to the big leagues or toiling in AA while having to work a second job, steroids makes a shit ton of sense. You'd be an idiot not to if anything.

    Getting caught when all these other guys didn't does make you quite the idiot though, no doubt about that.

    I actually think the biggest idiots are any of you guys who accept the apologies of steroid users. If you so fucking badly want to believe that cheaters can be forgiven, then just get over steroids being so taboo. You'll sleep easier at night instead of having to believe A-Rod gives a shit what you actually think of him. That is just kind of sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    The other thing is there's no denying these guys had talent, steroids doesn't make you a world beating hitter. Ask Greg Zaun. But if you're already remarkable, and steroids gets you over the top to absolute super stardom and the stupid money that comes with it, I completely understand the logic in taking the steroids. Yes you put your own health at risk, but people have put themselves at way more risk, for way less money, and continue to every day.
    Exactly.

    Because most of us live very unremarkable lives, maybe it's hard to really understand just how tantalizing of an offer it is but think of it this way. If you could have a chance to have a threesome with two gorgeous women while being married, would you do it? Now there's a chance you'll get caught, but you'd have to be really fucking stupid to have that happen.

    That's what steroids in baseball are.

    He had NOTHING to lose this time, his reputation was already shit on, so getting caught again wasn't going to do much of anything.
    Agreed. He had no reputation at that time, most people just had a nostalgic memory of him anyway. If anything I think the guy knew there was a good chance he would get caught but figured who gives a shit for the money. Again, this comes down to the fact that so many baseball fans think athletes actually care what they think. It's laughable. You pay money to sit and pretend like your opinions matter to these guys while they drive cars you wouldn't be allowed to touch and fuck women you wouldn't be allowed to talk to.

    Manny is a fucking modern day capitalist hero. Good for him. Better to be a cheating rich superstar than an honest broke nobody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    A-Rod got caught once and admitted that he took PED's. While I believe that his apology was pretty weak, he at least had the balls to admit guilt. Most people, at least those without a completely biased opinion, will think better of A-Rod than Manny. Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat.
    Don't you find it kind of hilarious how you have different levels of cheater? Last time I checked a cheater is a cheater. All of you should ask your significant others if they believe someone who cheats can be seen as anything other than a cheater ever again. Not going to happen.

    It's stupid that anyone thinks A-Rod had integrity for admitting he cheated. It wasn't integrity, it was a PR move and definitely was not his idea and definitely wouldn't have happened had he not been caught.

    True character would have been to admit it happened if no one accused him but what kind of IDIOT would do that? See how I tied it all together there?

  7. #37
    Go Bolts Hall of Famer dw13's Avatar
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    "Would you have a 3some with 2 beautiful women even though you're married" and you think the general answer is Yes and if not you're fucking stupid? Ahhh...




  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawinna13 View Post
    "Would you have a 3some with 2 beautiful women even though you're married" and you think the general answer is Yes and if not you're fucking stupid? Ahhh...

    You really butchered my quote there, pal.

  9. #39
    Go Bolts Hall of Famer dw13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyboard View Post
    You really butchered my quote there, pal.
    Not at all. You said people who wouldn't have sex with 2 beautiful women while married are 'fucking stupid'

    That's just stupid.



  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawinna13 View Post
    Not at all. You said people who wouldn't have sex with 2 beautiful women while married are 'fucking stupid'

    That's just stupid.
    Time to go back to school, your reading comprehension could use the work.

  11. #41
    Can you see what I see??? Hall of Famer secol's Avatar
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    butchered or not i think his point (which i think is valid) is that there are some men who don't just follow their dicks all the time
    12 team Keeper League ROTO....G, A, +/-, PIMs, PPP, GWG. W, GAA, SV%, SHO...KEEP 5


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  12. #42
    Go Bolts Hall of Famer dw13's Avatar
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    Hah.
    Last edited by dw13; 04-22-2011 at 09:12 PM.



  13. #43
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Because most of us live very unremarkable lives, maybe it's hard to really understand just how tantalizing of an offer it is but think of it this way. If you could have a chance to have a threesome with two gorgeous women while being married, would you do it? Now there's a chance you'll get caught, but you'd have to be really fucking stupid to have that happen.
    You can continue to use outrageous examples to try to make your point but it doesn't change a thing. If you or anyone else wants the threesome, knock yourself out. Just don't come on here after the fact and try to justify it. It's wrong and, if you get caught, you're still wrong, no matter how many people are in line behind you looking for sloppy seconds.

    Manny is a fucking modern day capitalist hero. Good for him. Better to be a cheating rich superstar than an honest broke nobody.
    And that is completely retarded. 1 of 2 scenarios happened:

    1. Manny never touched PED's prior to 2003.
    2. Manny took PED's prior to 2003 but never got caught.

    Either way, he was in the clear. He also had a signed contract that gave him $160M. No matter what he did after December of 2000, he was getting that money so there's really no need for the rich vs. broke comparison. The 2003 survey didn't really count for much and he was already on his new Dodgers deal when he was first caught so he already earned the $160M. Hardly a scenario where anyone can justify him juicing.


  14. #44
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    You can continue to use outrageous examples to try to make your point but it doesn't change a thing. If you or anyone else wants the threesome, knock yourself out. Just don't come on here after the fact and try to justify it. It's wrong and, if you get caught, you're still wrong, no matter how many people are in line behind you looking for sloppy seconds.



    And that is completely retarded. 1 of 2 scenarios happened:

    1. Manny never touched PED's prior to 2003.
    2. Manny took PED's prior to 2003 but never got caught.

    Either way, he was in the clear. He also had a signed contract that gave him $160M. No matter what he did after December of 2000, he was getting that money so there's really no need for the rich vs. broke comparison. The 2003 survey didn't really count for much and he was already on his new Dodgers deal when he was first caught so he already earned the $160M. Hardly a scenario where anyone can justify him juicing.
    So you're saying he should have taken steroids up until 2000 when he signed the new contract and then just stopped suddenly?

  15. #45
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    So you're saying he should have taken steroids up until 2000 when he signed the new contract and then just stopped suddenly?
    Meh. I don't really want to argue this any longer. You guys want to justify it and I don't. I'll just leave it at that.
    Last edited by Doctego; 04-23-2011 at 07:14 AM.


  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by secol View Post
    butchered or not i think his point (which i think is valid) is that there are some men who don't just follow their dicks all the time
    Okay. Let's bring it to a more decent example. When you drive and you speed, thus breaking the speed limit, you know you run the risk of getting caught but if you don't speed you won't make your meeting/dinner/funeral on time, so you justify it. If you don't speed and you're late, you may miss out on an opportunity that affects your income/lifestyle/well being.

    So, we speed breaking the law and knowing it's stupid if we get caught because had we left 10 minutes earlier we wouldn't have to but if it's between being late to a job interview or risking getting caught, a ticket, possible points and insurance implications, we justify it. Even thought it's really stupid to get caught speeding because you just didn't leave earlier.

    Now, that's a job interview/meeting/dinner date... how about if it was a chance to make a million dollars? What would you be willing to do to get to that meeting and there was a chance you might be late? Plus, what are the chances you'll get pulled over for doing 10-20 over? Everyone does it, right? It's getting caught that makes you look like an idiot, not the act itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    It's wrong and, if you get caught, you're still wrong, no matter how many people are in line behind you looking for sloppy seconds.
    Now you say that but you also say:
    Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat.
    So even if your wife catches you, apparently if you apologize you think she'll think better of you. I'd love to see how that conversation actually goes down.

    Also, I don't get the sloppy seconds reference.

  17. #47
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    I am not talking about my opinion about A-Rod vs. Manny. I am talking about the overall opinion in the media, public, etc. People in the Toronto area can hardly be objective about A-Rod due to their hatred for him but let's forget about that for a second. A-Rod apologized and was seen in a better light in many eyes. Manny offered up lame excuses and was never seen the same way about A-Rod. You can point out that both are cheaters and you are right. You aren't the judge and jury in this, though. The bottom line is that if you polled 1,000 people and asked what their opinions are on A-Rod re: PED's and Manny re: PED's, you would more than likely get more favorable opinions on A-Rod.

    I refuse to justify a bad action based on how many people do it or would do it. PED use as well as adultery is wrong. It doesn't matter what your reasons are for doing it. It's wrong. If someone chooses to do it, that is their decision and they have to live with the consequences. No lame bullshit excuses after the fact.


  18. #48
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
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    The way ARod came out (and subsequently 'apologzied') made me see him in a worse light frankly - I highly doubt it was his idea and it showed he cares too much about his image. Love Manny or hate him, he stuck to his guns, which, as crazy as it sounds, I can respect. He got paid a lot of money to perform at a high level....and he did. He was kind of foolish about it towards the end, but at least he wasn't tearing up pretending to be sorry, etc.

    A friends dad who is a cop once told me to never, ever admit whatever a cop wants you admit. Eg. did you have a quick pull on a joint? Come on, I won't bust you, I just want to hear the truth. No officer, no idea what you're talking about.

    I don't think admitting to steroids, at least the way ARod did it, is any braver or less cowardly than continually denying it. (end of the day though, I don't really care - I find it laughable the way the whole ordeal has been played out South of the border)

  19. #49
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    That's fine. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that feel that way. There are also a lot of people that would have a problem with A-Rod if he saved a child from a burning house.


  20. #50
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
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    For the record, it could be anyone other than ARod and I am pretty sure I'd still feel the same way. Public apologies are so stupid in this type of situation. (as I doubt there is legitimate remorse and I don't think these players owe the fans anything...seeing as the same fans were loving all the long-balls for years!)

  21. #51
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b_illin View Post
    For the record, it could be anyone other than ARod and I am pretty sure I'd still feel the same way. Public apologies are so stupid in this type of situation. (as I doubt there is legitimate remorse and I don't think these players owe the fans anything...seeing as the same fans were loving all the long-balls for years!)
    The fact is that you can't please everyone. Either he apologizes and gets called a fraud or he doesn't and gets called an asshole that doesn't give a shit. I think that history will look kinder on A-Rod because he apologized.


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