Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 33
  1. #1
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,585

    Roberto Alomar voted into the Baseball HOF

    http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=348148

    So pumped for Robbie, nice to see him get in.

    So what does everyone think, Greg Brady asked this today on the Fan 590, is Alomar the greatest Jay ever?

    You have Bell who won an MVP while playing in Toronto, Dave Stieb, Pat Hentgen, Jesse Barfield, Roy Halladay to name a few.

  2. #2
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    40
    Posts
    17,793
    Good for Robbie!

    (he is not the greatest Jay in my eyes though...I'd put Doc ahead of him and probably Steib as well...had Alomar played here longer he'd be the greatest, but as good as his time here was, it was too short to call him the greatest Jay...maybe the most greatest baseball player the Jays ever had though)

  3. #3
    Senior Member All-Star snoopzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    2,066
    Quote Originally Posted by b_illin View Post
    (he is not the greatest Jay in my eyes though...I'd put Doc ahead of him and probably Steib as well...had Alomar played here longer he'd be the greatest, but as good as his time here was, it was too short to call him the greatest Jay...maybe the most greatest baseball player the Jays ever had though)
    My sentiments exactly. And a good distinction between "Greatest Jay" and "Greatest Baseball Player the Jays Ever Had."

    Except maybe for the Dave Steib part.

  4. #4
    Senior Member First Liner
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,853
    Anyone see Barry Stanton from ESPN's ballot. He voted for Surhoff, Tino Martinez, Mattingly, Edgar Martinez, and Jack Morris, and nobody else, including Alomar. Freakin' terrible this guy gets a vote.

  5. #5
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,820
    Quote Originally Posted by habsfan1 View Post
    Anyone see Barry Stanton from ESPN's ballot. He voted for Surhoff, Tino Martinez, Mattingly, Edgar Martinez, and Jack Morris, and nobody else, including Alomar. Freakin' terrible this guy gets a vote.
    Good for him, he earned it around the time he was fired for plagarising articles from the best sportswriter in North America, Joe Posnanski in Sports Illustrated.

    I guess if you're gonna cheat, cheat big right?

    Side note, Jeff Bagwell being held out is criminal. You can't hold people out of the HOF because you "think" someone did steroids.

    The media's hypocrisy on this is asenine, Damien Cox(who I'm not defending, he's the biggest dickhead alive) gets ROASTED for saying we should ask about Jose Bautista...skip ahead 6 months and they refuse to vote Jeff Bagwell who never tested positive for steroids, never had any allegations around him, into the HOF because maybe he took them...he was pretty good afterall.

  6. #6
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Jersey
    Age
    46
    Posts
    43,772
    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    Good for him, he earned it around the time he was fired for plagarising articles from the best sportswriter in North America, Joe Posnanski in Sports Illustrated.

    I guess if you're gonna cheat, cheat big right?

    Side note, Jeff Bagwell being held out is criminal. You can't hold people out of the HOF because you "think" someone did steroids.

    The media's hypocrisy on this is asenine, Damien Cox(who I'm not defending, he's the biggest dickhead alive) gets ROASTED for saying we should ask about Jose Bautista...skip ahead 6 months and they refuse to vote Jeff Bagwell who never tested positive for steroids, never had any allegations around him, into the HOF because maybe he took them...he was pretty good afterall.
    I agree with what you are saying but isn't it also possible that Bagwell just isn't a HOF player??


  7. #7
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    I agree with what you are saying but isn't it also possible that Bagwell just isn't a HOF player??
    No. No it is not.

    Bagwell's OPS+ is 19th all time.

    He's one of only 16 players in MLB history to finish a career with an OBP over .400 and SLG% over .500. Of those players, only two(Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb) had more stolen bases.

    Here's a fun game...name me a better 1B in the entire history of the National League, besides Albert Pujols.

    Go on, I'll wait.

    Note : Stan Musial doesn't count, he's an OF.

  8. #8
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Jersey
    Age
    46
    Posts
    43,772
    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    No. No it is not.

    Bagwell's OPS+ is 19th all time.

    He's one of only 16 players in MLB history to finish a career with an OBP over .400 and SLG% over .500. Of those players, only two(Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb) had more stolen bases.

    Here's a fun game...name me a better 1B in the entire history of the National League, besides Albert Pujols.

    Go on, I'll wait.

    Note : Stan Musial doesn't count, he's an OF.
    I love the dramatics of each of your posts. I never said that he wasn't. I was talking about in the eyes of the voters. We could debate his numbers forever but I'm just saying that he isn't a slam dunk candidate. As such, he's going to have to wait a bit.


  9. #9
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    I love the dramatics of each of your posts. I never said that he wasn't. I was talking about in the eyes of the voters. We could debate his numbers forever but I'm just saying that he isn't a slam dunk candidate. As such, he's going to have to wait a bit.
    It's what I do.

    And he really should be a slam dunk. I guess he didn't reach any "milestone" numbers so to speak, but Jeff Bagwell is hands down one of the best hitters of the last 25 years, and unlike alot of his comperables, he has never been accused of steroids much less tested positive.

    The challenge is actually something that really opened my eyes to how good he really was, Joe Posnanski made that challenge about finding a better 1B in the history of the NL and at the time I read it I scoffed, but then you look at what he did, and he really is one of the best 1B of all time.

    And considering there are articles like this being written :

    "So, again, Joe’s right: Statistically, Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer. And, on a personal note, he was always an approachable and nice guy. But, dammit, thanks to baseball’s meekness (for lack of a better word), Hall of Fame voters (I’m not one, for the record) have the right to suspect anyone and everyone from the past era. They have the right to view muscles suspiciously; to question a guy putting up six-straight 100-plus RBI seasons in the heat of PED Madness; to wonder why—when, oh, 75 percent of players were using–one extremely succesful, extemely large, extremely muscular man wouldn’t.

    Did Jeff Bagwell use PED?

    I don’t know.

    Do I have the right to hold his era against him?

    Damn right I do."

    I don't think it's unfair for me to question the reason he's not in.
    Last edited by CayugaPosse; 01-06-2011 at 09:37 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member All-Star snoopzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    2,066
    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    And he really should be a slam dunk. I guess he didn't reach any "milestone" numbers so to speak, but Jeff Bagwell is hands down one of the best hitters of the last 25 years, and unlike alot of his comperables, he has never been accused of steroids much less tested positive.
    What? Rightly or wrongly, he has been under the cloud of suspicion of steroids for years.

    I think that this was journalistically irresponsible of Bryant Gumbel, but it's one example of an accusation:

    http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...sing-steroids/
    Bryant Gumbel accuses Bagwell, Nomar and Pudge of using steroids

    Craig Calcaterra
    Jan 21, 2010, 1:24 PM EST


    I don’t have HBO so I missed this, but apparently on Tuesday night Bryant Gumbel ended his “Real Sports” show by reading an open letter* to Mark McGwire, taking him to task over his apology. While it was silly because it (a) was premised on the notion that anyone should care what Mark McGwire thinks steroids did for him; and (b) assumes that, while he was a private citizen in California this past decade he had any obligation to explain to anyone what he did or did not take in his career, the criticism was nothing new.


    What was new, however, were the names Gumbel named at the end of the letter:
    “In closing, guys, please feel free to share this letter with Bagwell,
    Nomar, Pudge
    and all those others who went from hitting homers to power
    outages overnight. Tell ‘em fans are ready to accept what happened.
    Tell ‘em we’re ready to move on. Tell ‘em that most of us get it…even
    if they, like you, still don’t.”
    So there you have it. Gumbel is now the first person to publicly accuse Jeff Bagwell and Nomar Garciaparra and Pudge Rodriguez of steroid use (correction: Pudge was named by Canseco in “Juiced”).

  11. #11
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,820
    I should clear up what I meant I guess. I didn't mean sportswriters or hosts haven't baselessly flung shit in his direction.

    What I mean is, alot of these guys that get caught took a shit on each other on the way...Jose Canseco wrote books shitting and squeeling on everyone. Jeff Bagwell has never(as far as I know), been accused by anyone that might actually know.

    Bryant Gumble's comments are beyond stupid too. Ya, isn't it so suspicious that Jeff Bagwell hit a wall in his career and couldn't hit for power anymore?

    It couldn't have anything to do with him turning 36 could it?

    In 2004, his age 36 season, his power numbers started to trend downwards.

    In 2005, his age 37 season, he was essentially done. That's what happens to hitters.

    You know what, no, Gumble's right. The fact that a 37 year old Jeff Bagwell deteriorated is clear evidence he used steroids, I take it back.

    It's led me to re-examine baseball though, and I have a story that'll blow everyone away.

    Babe Ruth took steroids.

    It's true. He hit that same wall as a player. Look at the end of his career. Heck his last year he was hitting .181, the year before that his HR total cut almost in half.

    This is a startling discovery!

  12. #12
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    40
    Posts
    17,793
    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    It's what I do.

    And he really should be a slam dunk. I guess he didn't reach any "milestone" numbers so to speak, but Jeff Bagwell is hands down one of the best hitters of the last 25 years, and unlike alot of his comperables, he has never been accused of steroids much less tested positive.

    The challenge is actually something that really opened my eyes to how good he really was, Joe Posnanski made that challenge about finding a better 1B in the history of the NL and at the time I read it I scoffed, but then you look at what he did, and he really is one of the best 1B of all time.

    And considering there are articles like this being written :

    "So, again, Joe’s right: Statistically, Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer. And, on a personal note, he was always an approachable and nice guy. But, dammit, thanks to baseball’s meekness (for lack of a better word), Hall of Fame voters (I’m not one, for the record) have the right to suspect anyone and everyone from the past era. They have the right to view muscles suspiciously; to question a guy putting up six-straight 100-plus RBI seasons in the heat of PED Madness; to wonder why—when, oh, 75 percent of players were using–one extremely succesful, extemely large, extremely muscular man wouldn’t.

    Did Jeff Bagwell use PED?

    I don’t know.

    Do I have the right to hold his era against him?

    Damn right I do."

    I don't think it's unfair for me to question the reason he's not in.
    I don't think so...and it appears most seem to agree. Maybe he gets in one day, but not this year.

    PS: so what? Maybe no 1B from the NL deserve to be inducted.

  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star snoopzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    2,066
    Oh, I agree with what you're saying (Cayuga). I think that Bagwell certainly put up HOF-qualifying numbers, or at least better numbers than other players that are in there already.

    Unfortunately he put up his numbers with a strikingly muscular physique in an era where other players with big numbers and strikingly muscular physiques are getting caught using or are admitting to having used steroids. That certainly doesn't make him guilty, and the fact that no "insider" has outed him yet lends credence to his claims of innocence.

    I found this article online, which really encapsulated my thoughts on this issue. It covers a lot of ground, including the self-righteous hypocrisy of the baseball media who built up players like McGwire and Sosa during the salad years, then gleefully ripped them apart when they weren't producing any more.
    Bernie: Voting for Hall of Fame is out of whack
    BY BERNIE MIKLASZ, Post-Dispatch Sports Columnist
    Posted: Thursday, January 6, 2011 12:30 am
    (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/colum...2ba7d2eff.html)

    The voters representing the Baseball Writers' Association of America have taken a firm stand on Mark McGwire. He isn't getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame unless he buys a ticket and takes a tour with the family.McGwire won't be inducted. He's banned substance in Cooperstown. And we'll cite the so-called integrity clause on the Hall of Fame ballot to justify our decision.

    The integrity clause is interesting. It doesn't seem to have been consistently applied through the years, the decades, the different eras. It's OK for racists to be inducted. Pitchers who broke the rules and gained an advantage by doctoring the baseball? Sure, come on in. What about star players who padded their statistics and built Hall of Fame résumés during baseball's long, disgraceful period of segregation? They're fine.
    And how many resident Hall of Fame honorees popped handfuls of illegal amphetamines along the way to pep up during those long, tiring summer stretches? They're safe at home.

    Yes, as the guardians at the door, we may be erratic in imposing our particularly sanctimonious brand of morality. In McGwire's five years on the ballot, he's received between 19.8 percent and 23.7 percent of the vote, failing to come close to reaching the necessary 75 percent approval for passage.

    We're many of the same voters who looked the other way and glorified McGwire — godded him up, really — when he was filling those stadiums, creating excitement and selling extra newspaper copies in the late 1990s. The struggling print-news industry needed a boost, and McGwire was our performance-enhancing story. His muscle drove home runs and single-copy sales.

    And what proud, card-carrying member of the BBWAA wants to be reminded of that now? We've found religion on the steroids issue, and it is never too late to convert.

    And what about the serious-minded writers who expressed their willingness to forgive McGwire and vote for him if he'd come forward to admit to using steroids? Well, McGwire confessed last year. And on Wednesday, he received his lowest percentage of the vote, dropping four points from last year. There's your answer.

    It's too late for McGwire, the first member of the 500-homer club to be held accountable by the self-appointed steroids police of the press box. But how far do we intend to go with this?

    Rafael Palmeiro, who has more than 500 homers and 3,000 hits, is the latest to get blocked. He received only 11 percent of the vote on his initial appearance on the Hall of Fame ballot. Palmeiro flunked an official Major League Baseball steroids test after swearing that he never used the stuff.

    At least with McGwire and Palmeiro there's something to go on. If voters were legitimately disgusted by the damage that steroids allegedly inflicted on the game's precious ecosystem and record book, at least they could cite hardcore evidence in McGwire's confession and Palmeiro's dirty test.
    But where does this end? Jeff Bagwell put up automatic Baseball Hall of Fame numbers in his 15 seasons with the Houston Astros. He's the only first baseman in MLB history to have a combination of more than 400 homers and 200 stolen bases. He's the only first baseman to have a 30-homer, 30-steal season, and he did it twice.

    Despite taking half of his at-bats from 1991 through 1999 at the spacious, pitcher-friendly Houston Astrodome, Bagwell put together a 12-year streak of having an adjusted OPS (onbase plus slugging) of 130 or higher. (Among first basemen, that puts Bagwell right there with Lou Gehrig.) Bagwell had six consecutive seasons of at least 30 homers, 100 RBIs and 100 runs scored. For his career, he drove in more than 1,500 runs and scored more than 1,500 runs.

    And for all of that, Bagwell received only 41.7 percent of the vote as a first-time Hall of Fame eligible this year. He never failed a steroids test. He wasn't mentioned in the Mitchell Report. There was no Jose Canseco type, a peer, to come out of the shadows and accuse Bagwell of using or sharing steroids.

    Voters seem to have shunned Bagwell because (A) he had powerful muscles, and (B) amassed big numbers during the steroids era. And based on vague suspicion — but no evidence — Bagwell was adamantly shunned by the electorate.

    How is this fair? How is Bagwell, who retired in 2005, supposed to prove his innocence? He's denied using steroids, but that seems to have been rejected. So where do we go from here?

    We're way deep into a ludicrous phase of Hall of Fame voting. We're assuming that players from the steroids era are guilty even if there's no proof to support the smear.

    To flip this argument around, we're also assuming that other esteemed players of the era are innocent of using steroids, when we have no way of ever knowing, with certainty, how many players were caught up in this junk. And I hate to break it to the moralizers, but just because a player has an average body type doesn't mean he played clean. No more than it proves that huge forearms are the product of steroids.

    As always, we're being finicky about targeting certain people. We've zeroed in on power hitters. And usually we cite a spike in home run totals as one of the reasons — completely ignoring the reality that there have always been unexplained power surges by players in every decade, every era of baseball history.

    We have, to this point, ignored the likelihood that the steroids era included pitchers who were juicing, fast runners who were juicing, spectacular fielders who were juicing, and .300-plus hitters who were juicing.

    We're throwing around guilty verdicts based on hunches. I know that this isn't a court of law, but whatever happened to the benefit of the doubt in the absence of actual evidence? And before you dismiss that, let me ask you this: How would you feel if your boss or a co-worker falsely accused you of doing something improper, committing a fireable offense, based on nothing more than a gut feeling? I'd imagine that you'd be outraged.

    And that's what we're doing to Bagwell. And the problem will only get worse. Just wait until obvious steroids cheats are voted in, which will fully expose the hypocrisy and the whimsical application of ethical standards.

    The Baseball Hall of Fame vote has turned into a ridiculous self-important, self-righteous Kangaroo Court. This hopelessly flawed process must be reformed. As much as I hate to admit this, the writers are clearly incapable of sorting all of this out in a coherent, consistent way. Little did we know that there was another fallout to baseball's steroids eras: It caused some of the writers to lose their minds.
    Last edited by snoopzen; 01-06-2011 at 12:59 PM.

  14. #14
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Jersey
    Age
    46
    Posts
    43,772
    Actually, 41% on the 1st ballot for someone with even a hint of steroid use is quite good. That is unless they can be considered an immortal player, which Bagwell certainly isn't.


  15. #15
    Senior Member First Liner
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,853
    An article on Pete Rose vs guys like McGwire. (What's your guys thoughts)?

    I personally think Pete Rose should be eligible if known performance-enhancing drug users are eligible as what he did (albeit was wrong) did not effect the integrity of the game and the actual product like performance-enhancing drugs did.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...fame-hypocrisy

    Mark McGwire confessed to using steroids and HGH in his career. Shocking.
    In addition, the sky is apparently blue, and Bugs Bunny will always outsmart Elmer Fudd.
    Also, Pete Rose bet on baseball.
    It's a lot to take in, I know. But in all seriousness, there is more that brings together the tainted images of Rose and McGwire than delayed confessions. And even more that keeps them apart.
    Let's start with the common traits. Without question, both were extraordinarily talented players.
    Rose was the ugly, snarling face of the Big Red Machine back in the 1970s who led his Cincinnati squad to two World Series titles and raised the career hits record to a near untouchable level.
    McGwire, meanwhile, won a championship of his own with the Oakland A's before shattering Roger Maris' single-season home run record in 1998.
    Following his retirement as a player, Rose became embroiled in controversy that eventually led to a lifetime ban from baseball. McGwire also suffered the slings and arrows of public humiliation, which forced him into a self-imposed exile from the game.
    As a result of his scandal, Rose was formally banned from ever taking his place in the Hall of Fame. McGwire has also been essentially shut out of the Hall, though no official declaration has ever been made.
    And finally, after years of hiding from the truth lying about their indiscretions, both Rose and McGwire delivered equally unsurprising and disingenuous confessions in the hope of being accepted back into the baseball community.
    On the surface, it would seem the careers of these two men are virtually parallel. But look a little closer, and you'll find that their paths veer off in dramatically different directions. It is any wonder, though, how they've ended in the same place.
    You see, while Rose and McGwire did violate the rules, Pete's crime is a minor assault compared to Big Mac's vicious killing spree.
    Rose bet on baseball as a manager with the Reds. According to his long-overdue confession, he never put money on or against his own team, and all of his violations came after his playing days were over.
    In other words, his career as it pertained to playing the game was entirely clean.
    What he did on the field—pounding out a record 4,256 hits, winning Rookie of the Year in 1963, the MVP in 1973, and racking up 17 All-Star Game appearances—was a result of his own abilities and his fiery, competitive spirit.
    The strongest performance enhancer he ever took was a little Gatorade between innings.
    McGwire violated the rules as a player, taking substances to improve his performance on the field and gain an edge over his peers. He admitted to doing so off and on throughout the late 1980s and '90s, including during the '98 season in which he belted a then-record 70 home runs.
    Whatever he or anyone else would have you believe about the efficacy of steroids and HGH, McGwire's achievements were the direct result of the competitive imbalance caused by his use of those performance-enhancing drugs.
    He rebounded from injuries faster, prevented injuries from occurring altogether, and increased his durability over the long and grueling baseball season.
    Some like to say Rose violated the sanctity of the game by betting on it. He didn't. He violated the sanctity of gambling, if there is such a thing.
    It was McGwire and all those like him who have tainted and dishonored a once-hallowed sport by dramatically and illegally altering the outcome on the field and in the record books.
    Rose did not. And even if he lied about betting on games in which his team played, it still happened while he was a manager and has nothing to do with his days as a player. His earth-shattering career numbers remain as awe-inspiring as they are uninfluenced by scandal.
    It is an absolute travesty and an utter joke that Pete Rose continues to stand on the outside of the Hall of Fame looking in.
    McGwire and others like him not only lived a lie, but played one, too.
    Nothing about his career or those of Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Andy Pettitte, Sammy Sosa, or even Roger Clemens can be considered clean. All broke the rules, all had a hand in tainting the game, and none deserves to be enshrined for their efforts.
    On a personal note, I might personally ban every one of them from ever going near a Major League facility for directly and illegally disgracing the game on the field.
    However, lifetime bans aside, at the very least they deserve nothing less than a ban from the Hall of Fame.
    And yet, their names still appear on the ballot or will very soon. They are still talked about as some of the greatest talents the game has ever seen and that they would've been Hall of Famers even without performance-enhancing drugs.
    But how can anyone know that? And more to the point, what difference does that make?
    Let's say McGwire didn't start juicing until well into his admittedly dominant career. Let's say Bonds didn't seek out Balco's help until long after he was a veteran all-star.
    Let's say five of Clemens' seven Cy Young Awards came before his trainer started injecting him with God knows what.
    None of that, not one thing, changes the fact that these players cheated. They cheated the fans, the league, and the game itself.
    Through their actions, the record books have become a bigger joke than their own denials, and baseball has suffered a tremendous blow because of it.
    People like McGwire should never be forgiven for what they've done, and if that doesn't mean a ban from the game, it should certainly include exile from Cooperstown.
    People like Rose can never be trusted enough to be let back in the game, but they have earned—not stolen or cheated or injected, but earned—their rightful place in the Hall.
    Last edited by habsfan1; 01-06-2011 at 01:24 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,585
    Rose should be in the HOF IMO.

  17. #17
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Jersey
    Age
    46
    Posts
    43,772
    I think that Pete Rose is a prick. No one with half a brain will say that he doesn't deserve to be in based on his playing career. That can't be debated. That said, there is a sign in every clubhouse that says that, if you bet on baseball, you are banned forever. He ignored that. He also had well over a decade to admit what he did but he didn't do that. He grabbed ever mic that he could to proclaim his innocence. He is and was an attention whore. He ignored MLB's clearly stated position on betting on baseball, agreed to a lifetime ban, and now I'm supposed to feel sorry for him?? Fuck him. I see a major difference between gambling and steroids. Many proponents of letting the juicers into the HOF state that MLB had no real penalties so, even though steroids were illegal and weren't allowed in baseball, users really didn't break any rules because there weren't any penalties in place. Let me accept that extremely flawed (IMHO) argument for a moment. No one can claim the same ignorance when it comes to betting on baseball. Do it and you're gone forever. Clear as day. He did it and sealed his fate even more by agreeing to a lifetime ban. I don't know what else you need. Don't even get me started on that absolute bullshit statement that some people say that, since he only bet on his team to win, he really didn't do anything wrong. Please.

    My opinion is that his on field achievements as a player deserve to be mentioned in the HOF but that cocksucker has no business stepping in there without a paid ticket. Unfortunately, I don't know how to separate the 2 to satisfy both sides.


  18. #18
    Senior Member All-Star
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    37
    Posts
    3,808
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    Actually, 41% on the 1st ballot for someone with even a hint of steroid use is quite good. That is unless they can be considered an immortal player, which Bagwell certainly isn't.
    Yup. Bagwell played his whole career with one team, which is admirable. But his "glamor" numbers for a power hitter aren't top 25. A lot of guys don't get in on their first try (Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, etc). Is that right? Probably not, because a lot of baseball writers are complete idiots. But that's just the way it goes. He's was a great player, and he'll get in one day

  19. #19
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,585
    More good news for Robbie, he's going in as a Jay, (which he said yesterday he wanted) he will be the 1st Jay in the baseball HOF.

  20. #20
    The Original K.I.N.G. Hall of Famer King_Killah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wherever I want to be!
    Age
    42
    Posts
    21,632
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    I think that Pete Rose is a prick. No one with half a brain will say that he doesn't deserve to be in based on his playing career. That can't be debated. That said, there is a sign in every clubhouse that says that, if you bet on baseball, you are banned forever. He ignored that. He also had well over a decade to admit what he did but he didn't do that. He grabbed ever mic that he could to proclaim his innocence. He is and was an attention whore. He ignored MLB's clearly stated position on betting on baseball, agreed to a lifetime ban, and now I'm supposed to feel sorry for him?? Fuck him. I see a major difference between gambling and steroids. Many proponents of letting the juicers into the HOF state that MLB had no real penalties so, even though steroids were illegal and weren't allowed in baseball, users really didn't break any rules because there weren't any penalties in place. Let me accept that extremely flawed (IMHO) argument for a moment. No one can claim the same ignorance when it comes to betting on baseball. Do it and you're gone forever. Clear as day. He did it and sealed his fate even more by agreeing to a lifetime ban. I don't know what else you need. Don't even get me started on that absolute bullshit statement that some people say that, since he only bet on his team to win, he really didn't do anything wrong. Please.

    My opinion is that his on field achievements as a player deserve to be mentioned in the HOF but that cocksucker has no business stepping in there without a paid ticket. Unfortunately, I don't know how to separate the 2 to satisfy both sides.
    As soon as Selig is gone, Rose is in. His numbers are Hall worthy. His extra-curricular bullshit, well... I understand it. He is a douche. He is banging a pretty hot chick though of which he is more than twice her age and he persuaded her to do Playboy.
    The Best there is, The Best there was, The BEST THERE EVER WILL BE..... King Killah!


    PM me for price quotes for signature space.

  21. #21
    The Original K.I.N.G. Hall of Famer King_Killah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wherever I want to be!
    Age
    42
    Posts
    21,632
    So how does Alomar get the thread and not BERT BLYLEVEN?? Come on...the man waited 14 years to finally make it in!
    The Best there is, The Best there was, The BEST THERE EVER WILL BE..... King Killah!


    PM me for price quotes for signature space.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,585
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Killah View Post
    So how does Alomar get the thread and not BERT BLYLEVEN?? Come on...the man waited 14 years to finally make it in!
    Alomar is a king around Toronto

  23. #23
    Senior Member All-Star boredguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,717
    Meh, Bagwell will get into the hall of fame, almost surely in the next 5 years. He wasn't getting in this year more cause of the "only the very best/biggest stars should get in on first ballot" guys more than any suspected ped use guys.

  24. #24
    * * * * * * Hall of Famer b_illin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    40
    Posts
    17,793
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Killah View Post
    As soon as Selig is gone, Rose is in. His numbers are Hall worthy. His extra-curricular bullshit, well... I understand it. He is a douche. He is banging a pretty hot chick though of which he is more than twice her age and he persuaded her to do Playboy.

    Of course he is!!

  25. #25
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,820
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Killah View Post
    So how does Alomar get the thread and not BERT BLYLEVEN?? Come on...the man waited 14 years to finally make it in!
    Ecstatic to see him get in, it's almost painfully long overdue.

  26. #26
    Senior Member All-Star abusiveninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dallas
    Age
    38
    Posts
    3,997
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Killah View Post
    So how does Alomar get the thread and not BERT BLYLEVEN?? Come on...the man waited 14 years to finally make it in!
    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    Ecstatic to see him get in, it's almost painfully long overdue.
    Friggin crime that it took this long.

    The HOF and the voting/ballot process is a joke. Cannot stand it.

    People who never played the game should not be allowed to vote. The way John Clayton should not be allowed to be an NFL analyst. Fucking nerds.

  27. #27
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Jersey
    Age
    46
    Posts
    43,772
    I like Blyleven and am happy to see him in but, since we talked about "slam dunks", he is not the no-brainer that a lot of people claim he is. He was much of a compiler.


  28. #28
    Senior Member All-Star CayugaPosse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctego View Post
    I like Blyleven and am happy to see him in but, since we talked about "slam dunks", he is not the no-brainer that a lot of people claim he is. He was much of a compiler.
    I don't know that anyone made the case that he was a slam-dunk, I think most people just pointed to the fact that he is considerably better when you look behind the basic numbers than several people already in the HOF.

    I think people's case was, if over his 22 year career, if he had won 13 more games to hit the "magic 300 wins", would this have really taken 14 years? The answer is no.

  29. #29
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Jersey
    Age
    46
    Posts
    43,772
    Quote Originally Posted by CayugaPosse View Post
    I don't know that anyone made the case that he was a slam-dunk, I think most people just pointed to the fact that he is considerably better when you look behind the basic numbers than several people already in the HOF.

    I think people's case was, if over his 22 year career, if he had won 13 more games to hit the "magic 300 wins", would this have really taken 14 years? The answer is no.
    Personally, I hate the argument that someone should be in because there are already people in that were lesser players. I don't see the need to compound a previous mistake with a current one. As for the magic number, there needs to be a cutoff somewhere. Either way, Blyleven is the poster child for being able to manipulate the numbers to make an argument, either for or against his candidacy. The fact that he pitched for 22 years and was still debatable lends credence to his status as a compiler.


  30. #30
    Samurai Stickhandler All-Star toronto1979's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Toronto area
    Age
    38
    Posts
    4,815
    Quote Originally Posted by b_illin View Post
    Good for Robbie!

    (he is not the greatest Jay in my eyes though...I'd put Doc ahead of him and probably Steib as well...had Alomar played here longer he'd be the greatest, but as good as his time here was, it was too short to call him the greatest Jay...maybe the most greatest baseball player the Jays ever had though)
    Greatest player? I agree, if like you say discount pitchers. I'd also put Halladay (maybe Stieb) and Clemens ahead of him.

    As for batters, only Carlos Delgado and Tony Fernandez come close in my mind.
    12 Team Keep-10 League - Silver

    16 Team All Categories - 5th

    18 Team Office Pool - Gold

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •