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  1. #3391
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    Right on Chg. I was less disagreeing with you specifically (Although I clearly implied I did which is my bad) and moreso just re-igniting the discussion around Mrazek after a long break from this thread. I probably could've left out "I disagree" at the start of my post and gone from there. I feel for the most part my thoughts/fears regarding Mrazek (and unfortunately Nyquist, specifically regarding not jumping the gun on him being a true pure goal scorer) have been validated and Detroit seems to have a lot less to look forward to than we convinced ourselves from 2012-2015. The touted prospect pool isn't materializing into anything relevant and Detroit might be off the rails from its impressive rebuild and on track towards a decade of mediocrity.

    This is all extremely pessimistic, but hey, I'm a realist at whatever the cost, even if it makes me look depressingly negative or blindly positive as us Wings fans have been so often accused of around here. It was going good for a long time so i probably seemed obnoxiously optimistic (The Wings essentially were the NHL's Patriots so it was hard to not be obnoxious about their success) but I'm calling it like it is now: The Wings suck and need a dramatic spark. I'm officially going as far as to say Kenny Holland's star has burnt out entirely and its now very much a debate if Detroit has competent management for today's NHL. I know Kenny H isn't going anywhere, but man his approach sure needs to change a bit.
    Last edited by Kyle; 01-20-2017 at 10:52 AM.

  2. #3392
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    Saddest thing is, Vanek has exceeded every and any earthly projections a sane human being could've had for his production this year, and everyone else just can't bother to join in.

  3. #3393
    Senior Member Hall of Famer chgorman's Avatar
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    What a gawdawful game. Wings need to start tanking, if they haven't already.

  4. #3394
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    I gotta be honest man, I checked out on this season and even wasting my time on these games a few weeks ago.

    Might make me sound like a fairweather fan, but a combination of this pathetic product and having far less free time in my life than ever has me simply moving on from the Red Wings for a while, knowing the dramatic type of rebuild they're about to enter for a long time. Tanking is definitely the best bet this year, I hate the practice but fuck, if Chicago, Pittsburgh, Edmenton get forgiven I'm happy to watch the Wings do the same.

    The only issue? The East is so shockingly tight this year, that the Wings are only 7 pts out of the playoffs at 16th place. There's only 9 pts between 6th and 16th right now so you know the mantra around the room and during practices is to ignore what's happened so far and focus on the very realistic playoff spot. Even though we both agree the team blows and won't get it, you have to imagine they're going to be trying a hell of a lot harder to get it than a team tanking.
    Last edited by Kyle; 01-31-2017 at 11:37 PM.

  5. #3395
    Senior Member Hall of Famer chgorman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    I gotta be honest man, I checked out on this season and even wasting my time on these games a few weeks ago.

    Might make me sound like a fairweather fan, but a combination of this pathetic product and having far less free time in my life than ever has me simply moving on from the Red Wings for a while, knowing the dramatic type of rebuild they're about to enter for a long time. Tanking is definitely the best bet this year, I hate the practice but fuck, if Chicago, Pittsburgh, Edmenton get forgiven I'm happy to watch the Wings do the same.
    Agreed, I'm not a fan of tanking either, but these days, very few teams seem to be able to make it to the upper echelon of the league without tanking for at least a year or two in order to get early 1st round picks, so it seems to be a necessary evil. I'm pretty sure I've said in the past that I would never advocate tanking, but that was when the Wings were decent and seemed to always be able to retool on the fly and avoid a full rebuild. I've been hopeful for the past few years that they could continue with the retool/reload (vs. rebuild) strategy, but after seeing how terrible they've been playing for the past 2-3 months (a few decent games here and there aside), i don't think a reload/retool is gonna cut it. It clearly isn't working this season, for sure, so a full-on rebuild seems to be the only option if they want to get back to elite status.

    As far as I'm concerned, they need to hold on to Larkin, Mantha, Abdelkader, Athanasiou, Glendenning, maybe Helm, keep DeKeyser, Ouellet, maybe Sproul and Marchenko, keep Mrazek and Coreau, and either trade everyone else for picks/prospects/good young NHL'ers, or let them walk as FA's, or put them on waivers (if financially feasible to do so) in order to open up some roster space for some younger guys and open up some cap space to pounce on some of the better young FA's in the coming years. And then of course draft a legit first pair offensive dman as well as some top flight offensive forwards and some solid supporting pieces. Obviously easier said than done, but if they can get some extra picks in return for current roster players that won't be part of the rebuild, it'll be somewhat easier.

    Unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever happen, as Kenny H has already reiterated recently that they're sticking with the retool/reload philosophy over a rebuild strategy, which to me is the wrong way to go given the current state of the league/cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle
    The only issue? The East is so shockingly tight this year, that the Wings are only 7 pts out of the playoffs at 16th place. There's only 9 pts between 6th and 16th right now so you know the mantra around the room and during practices is to ignore what's happened so far and focus on the very realistic playoff spot. Even though we both agree the team blows and won't get it, you have to imagine they're going to be trying a hell of a lot harder to get it than a team tanking.
    I don't disagree, but it pisses me off, especially with how bad they're playing. Even if they do make the playoffs, they're gonna get embarrassed, will be swept in the 1st round, will probably lose every game by 3+ goals, and will get stuck with a 15th-20th overall pick. I'm sure Illitch probably wants to keep the streak going and is probably in Holland's ear all the time about it, while Blashill wants to keep his job, so I doubt any of those three will allow a true 'tank' to happen over the next couple seasons, even though that would be the best thing for the team long-term.

    That said, with how bad they've been playing, especially lately, maybe they ARE tanking and are just doing a good job disguising it to the media/fans, haha. Sure looks like they're tanking on the ice, even if nobody in the org is willing to admit it.

    I really hope they don't go on some crazy run over the next month to get into playoff contention and then Kenny decides to be a buyer instead of a seller at the deadline, as that would be the worst possible thing for the team long-term.

  6. #3396
    Senior Member Hall of Famer two24four's Avatar
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    This isn't the season to tank for 1st. Patrick and Hischier are good players but not like top picks in years past. This is a weak draft...Kind of feel for the Avs, they are soooo bad this year but if they land the 1st pick it wont be a McDavid, Matthews, Laine, Eichel, Tavares, Stamkos, Crosby etc....

  7. #3397
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    Quote Originally Posted by two24four View Post
    This isn't the season to tank for 1st. Patrick and Hischier are good players but not like top picks in years past. This is a weak draft...Kind of feel for the Avs, they are soooo bad this year but if they land the 1st pick it wont be a McDavid, Matthews, Laine, Eichel, Tavares, Stamkos, Crosby etc....
    The Avs best chance is to pick up a few young guns from the Leafs for Duchene
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  8. #3398
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    RIP To a great man, a modern sports legend, and arguably one of the 3-5 people most responsible for the few good things Detroit as a city has had to be proud of for decades. That's no exaggeration, Mike Ilitch is as much (if not more) of a hero to non-sports fans in Detroit as he is to sports fans.

    Class from top to bottom and it seeped through every crack in the Red Wings organization. His personality is why the Wings have been viewed as class personified for multiple decades now. He will certainly be dearly missed.

    On a lighter note, I wish he owned a better quality Pizza chain....As much as I'd like to honor him with a slice, I'll be right behind him if I nuke my system with Little Ceasars.
    Last edited by Kyle; 02-11-2017 at 11:30 AM.

  9. #3399
    King Nitbag Hall of Famer Doctego's Avatar
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    I would have liked to have seen him get to win a World Series title, too. Isn't that name going to be plastered on the new arena?


  10. #3400
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    Yeah, I've never been close to a baseball guy so I felt very under-qualified to comment on his Tigers success. For the most part, the perception hasn't seemed too great on the team. That said, I also can remember a lot of seasons filled with promise that just ended poorly. Would have been great to say he brought Detroit championships in two different sports.

    I believe it will be. It is the Little Caesars Arena, after all. I imagine they'll be even more inclined to honor him all over the arena after his passing.

  11. #3401
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    Nyquist is a total idiot.
    Last edited by Kyle; 02-13-2017 at 11:02 AM.

  12. #3402
    Senior Member Hall of Famer chgorman's Avatar
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    The fact that he's trying to say it was an accident is the biggest joke.

  13. #3403
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    Yeah, and its one thing to do that when you're averaging just shy of 30 goals a year. Then you become a project. But to do it after 24 goals in his last 138 games? Now he's a liability.

  14. #3404
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    gdi, if the Wings win again tonight and make it three in a row, I'll be fucking annoyed.

  15. #3405
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    Small 20 game sample size, but this has really been a great year for Howard.

    The Wings need to shop him somewhere desperate ASAP in the offseason because this might be the last year that any team can convince themselves Howard can help them make a run. He probably can't due to his health and inconsistency, but if he ends the year below 2.00 and above .930, its hard to ignore entirely.

    Unfortunately, he's also the reason Detroit isn't on pace to be eligible for the lottery this year, so I hope he's not back next year.

  16. #3406
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    I went to "farewell to the Joe fan appreciation day" yesterday, It was great. I was the only one wearing Blue and White (Winter Classic Killer #93 jersey) in a sea of red. Made for an interesting day to say the least. Would love to catch the Leafs/Wings on April 1st there but the scalpers are all over this one, unfortunately (although it would still be alot cheaper than going to the hanger lol)
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  17. #3407
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    Haha, yeah, I bet its still way cheaper. No surprise they jumped on this game, Detroit fans have so little in the way of marquee matchups anymore that an old rival and most recent ex-coach is the best it gets.

  18. #3408
    Season Ticket Holder Hall of Famer Dubz's Avatar
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    I good a few odd glares when i said i found two good photos to take: Shanny and Babs I was looking around at TIX and you can go see the Devils at the hanger for $80 but it $200 for nosebleeds when Crosby is in the house. They are taking advantage of the Leaf fans. Even the ticket guy at the Joe told me alot of people come from Toronto because its cheaper to watch a fkn game with travel and motel than to go to the ACC (who just recently decided to raise ticket prices https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/map...201723935.html) I dont think it has much to do with the Wings lol.
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  19. #3409
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    Well, I guess now I know the only thing more annoying than a team visibly tanking: a team clearly trying their hardest when they have every reason in the world to let off the gas a bit and at least give themselves a chance at the lottery. I know Blashil wants to keep his job but fuck off already.

  20. #3410
    Senior Member Hall of Famer phaneuf6's Avatar
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    Was at the Joe Saturday for the second last game there - what an atmosphere. Playoff-like, despite the obvious non-playoff status of the team.

    Wings management hates their goaltending but will stick it out next year and let them both battle for the number one spot. Sheahan will not be bought out, despite his struggles.

  21. #3411
    Senior Member Hall of Famer chgorman's Avatar
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    Happy to see the Griffs take the Calder Cup. Gives a little bit more hope for the future.

  22. #3412
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    Quote Originally Posted by chgorman View Post
    Happy to see the Griffs take the Calder Cup. Gives a little bit more hope for the future.
    It doesn't hurt, that's for sure. But we've been down this road as Wings fan. Had a top 3 prospect pool that over the span of 4 years now has amounted to virtually nothing. Trying to stay positive for Sproul and Oullet, Athanasiou and Manthra are bordering very productive, but overall there hasn't been any sort of star power emerging that was supposed to keep the Wings afloat. Because of that I take it with a grain of salt when the Griffs win or if prospects do really well at lower levels.

  23. #3413
    Senior Member Hall of Famer phaneuf6's Avatar
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    Bertuzzi and Lorito should both be full-time, productive Red Wings next year.

  24. #3414
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    Definitely excited about Bertuzzi. Haven't learned much about Lorito yet.

  25. #3415
    Senior Member Hall of Famer chgorman's Avatar
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    Wow, Wings exposing Mrazek to Vegas, citing performance and attitude concerns. I know his performance hasn't been up to par the past year and a half, but I wasn't aware of any attitude issues and am still not sure that protecting Howard over Mrazek is the right move regardless of any attitude issues, given the age difference and Jimmy's contract.

    Now, if Vegas doesn't take him, not only is he not going to want to play for the wings now that he's been publicly out-ed by the organization, but he'll be damaged goods on the trade market and have poor trade value.

    I had high hopes for this guy and believed he was gonna be their #1 for a long time, so this is pretty disappointing for me, regardless of how it ends up.

  26. #3416
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    Quote Originally Posted by chgorman View Post
    Wow, Wings exposing Mrazek to Vegas, citing performance and attitude concerns. I know his performance hasn't been up to par the past year and a half, but I wasn't aware of any attitude issues and am still not sure that protecting Howard over Mrazek is the right move regardless of any attitude issues, given the age difference and Jimmy's contract.

    Now, if Vegas doesn't take him, not only is he not going to want to play for the wings now that he's been publicly out-ed by the organization, but he'll be damaged goods on the trade market and have poor trade value.

    I had high hopes for this guy and believed he was gonna be their #1 for a long time, so this is pretty disappointing for me, regardless of how it ends up.

    Wow. This says nothing positive about the Wings or the direction the franchise is heading in, so in general I'm not happy to hear this. I am happy, though, that my extreme minority held opinion that I've constantly repeated since Mrazek's career started has been vindicated by this move. I've always said he has never approached the quality of play that Howard gave the Wings for 4 years when he carried them into the playoffs 2 of those years(Remember when EVERYONE was injured? Howard was the hero). Beyond that, I said even while he was on the Wings, and even when the numbers didn't support it, I never felt like he was ever outplaying Howard. I've repeated this for years while people destroyed Howard after every so-so game and praised Mrazek for every equally so-so game.

    I'm a Howard guy and its gotten me laughed out of many discussions in various Wings communities from the vast majority who was eager to see Mrazek replace him. I still to this moment do not understand why anyone ever thought Mrazek was supposed to be as good as Howard was in 2010, 2012, or 2013. I don't get why we build up romantic narratives and imagine that they've already played out. Mrazek was never a good NHL goalie, just a guy who was supposed to be one, so we decided to say "Fuck off and good riddance" to the established stud at goalie the Wings already had, who to this day is still the better NHL goalie when healthy.

    I've never had anything against Mrazek. I simply hate when people try to push a guy ahead of another because of what they're supposed to be before their pro careers even start. Mrazek is the minor league stud and Howard is the nobody. And yet Mrazek is the major league dud and Howard is the guy who finished top 10 in Vezina 2 of his first 4 years and 2nd in Calder voting. Who was the real sensation?

    Hopefully he is picked up, and the Wings can line up a true replacement next time for Howard, at a time that actually makes sense, not 4-5 years sooner than they should've been looking to replace him.

    PS - What trade value? lol Mrazek already shot that on his own
    Last edited by Kyle; 06-19-2017 at 08:19 PM.

  27. #3417
    Senior Member Hall of Famer phaneuf6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chgorman View Post
    Wow, Wings exposing Mrazek to Vegas, citing performance and attitude concerns. I know his performance hasn't been up to par the past year and a half, but I wasn't aware of any attitude issues and am still not sure that protecting Howard over Mrazek is the right move regardless of any attitude issues, given the age difference and Jimmy's contract.

    Now, if Vegas doesn't take him, not only is he not going to want to play for the wings now that he's been publicly out-ed by the organization, but he'll be damaged goods on the trade market and have poor trade value.

    I had high hopes for this guy and believed he was gonna be their #1 for a long time, so this is pretty disappointing for me, regardless of how it ends up.
    Ken Holland hates him. I doubt he would've been a Red Wing after next season anyways.

  28. #3418
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaneuf6 View Post
    Ken Holland hates him. I doubt he would've been a Red Wing after next season anyways.
    Any chance you can elaborate on this? I think Chg would even agree, its always felt like Kenny H and the organization absolutely adored Mrazek and were always as anxious as possible to see him take the reigns. They protected him with a lot of easier matchups his first few years and really tried to give him every chance possible to keep extended start streaks going until he'd force them to bench him. It really always felt like the opposite of what you said, like Kenny H was Mrazek's biggest fan.

  29. #3419
    Season Ticket Holder Hall of Famer Dubz's Avatar
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    I think its a bad move and Vegas will pick him up.
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  30. #3420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubz View Post
    I think its a bad move and Vegas will pick him up.
    It sounds like it's pretty much a done deal that they are taking Fleury. If so the other goalie I would take if I'm them is Dell from SJ. Unless they have a deal to leave him alone.

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