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eff1ngham
04-08-2011, 03:26 PM
Major League Baseball announced the move in a statement on Friday.
"Major League Baseball recently notified Manny Ramirez of an issue under Major League Baseball's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program," the statement said. "Rather than continue with the process under the Program, Ramirez has informed MLB that he is retiring as an active player. If Ramirez seeks reinstatement in the future, the process under the Drug Program will be completed. MLB will not have any further comment on this matter."


Guy was always one of my favorite hitters to watch back in the day.....

rico3994
04-08-2011, 04:31 PM
Wow, Brutal way to have the info put out there.

b_illin
04-08-2011, 05:57 PM
Really glad I dropped Gordon instead of him on Monday! :(

looch17
04-08-2011, 07:20 PM
Sucks one of my favorites.

phaneuf6
04-08-2011, 10:31 PM
Manny being Manny. Good career but that's a really bad way to be remembered going out.

moans
04-08-2011, 11:00 PM
Manny being Manny. Good career but that's a really bad way to be remembered going out.

I believe Manny being Barry works a little better here. What an idiot though. The guy's already been booked for drugs once, he has to know he's going to be caught if he uses again.

CayugaPosse
04-18-2011, 12:47 AM
I believe Manny being Barry works a little better here. What an idiot though. The guy's already been booked for drugs once, he has to know he's going to be caught if he uses again.

Don't know if you saw his stint in Chicago last year with the White Sox, but if you did, than you know, his career was already over. With the absurd amount of money being thrown around to literally everyone in sports these days, he is deffinitely not an "idiot" for getting back on something to try and make a comeback for one final paycheck.

Everyone gets so up in arms about steroids in all these sports, maybe congress, the fans, and the sports themselves should realize, that when you incentivize the sports to the level we have in this current landscape, taking steroids to try and push yourself over the top isn't insane, or devious, or evil. It's actually an incredibly, incredibly rational train of thought. Steroids = $100,000,000. Someone here offer me a hundred million dollars to do lots of steroids and see what I do...

dw13
04-18-2011, 01:05 AM
He's not an idiot for denying using a woman's fertility drug as a mask for his steroids? He's not an idiot for saying "I'm at ease, this is what God wants" when he was busted for the SECOND time? He's not an idiot for being a blatant liar instead of fessing up to cheating the game and the people who paid him his money?

Hey, if you want to live your life like that, lying and coning your way to millions. Go for it bud.

He's an idiot. You'd be an idiot too, if you did it.

CayugaPosse
04-18-2011, 03:40 AM
He's not an idiot for denying using a woman's fertility drug as a mask for his steroids? He's not an idiot for saying "I'm at ease, this is what God wants" when he was busted for the SECOND time? He's not an idiot for being a blatant liar instead of fessing up to cheating the game and the people who paid him his money?

Hey, if you want to live your life like that, lying and coning your way to millions. Go for it bud.

He's an idiot. You'd be an idiot too, if you did it.

How did he cheat the people that paid him his money? He was the best right handed hitter in the game outside of Albert Pujols for a decade. Considering a franchise paid him to be a great hitter, he more than lived up to his end.

Look, I don't know what kind of moral rediculousness you have, but I'm telling you right now, and I truly believe this, and always have, and always will...

If I were Bill Gates, and I walked up to you and said, "Take steroids for the next 5 years and play a sport, and I will give you $100,000,000"(or MORE than that in his case), and you said no...not only are you a fucking idiot, YOU'RE the irresponsible one.

Everyone acts like this is some grave injustice, this is a complete victimless crime except yourself. You're choosing to eventually be the victim, by putting yourself at risk of health complications associated with steroids. The money that's thrown around these sports these days isn't just life changing money. 1 million dollars is life changing. 100 million dollars changes the lives of your family for GENERATIONS if used properly.

The team you played for isn't victimized, you were great. Fans aren't victimized, they get to see a show. Even knowing what we know now, is anyone actually going to tell me that the Sosa/McGwire HR chases weren't the most exciting things in baseball the last 15 years? Same with Bonds, I remember tuning in to Giants games nightly as he started to approach 70...

They cheated. That's awful. But don't sit there and act like you, or I, wouldn't do the same thing given the opportunity, because there's no way you wouldn't. This is an absolutely asenine amount of money at the end of the rainbow, and for what? To cheat at a game?

Manny Ramirez is a cheater. He's a goofball. But making a decision to use steroids isn't "stupid", or "insane". It's a very rational decision to make.

Even if you're a liar and you disagree with the fact that you'd turn down the chance for that money if you were in a similar situation(and yes I'm calling you a liar if you say that because you are, I don't think there's anything you could ask me to do, outside of killing a person, for that much money that I'd say no to. That's realist. I wouldn't kill because that's having a very real, permanant, lasting, damaging affect on another life or lives for my own benefit. Steroids is not comperable in any way.), to dismiss making that decision as "stupid", is infact, "stupid".

ih8music
04-18-2011, 07:29 AM
I don't really see the moral difference between using illegal supplements like steroids/HGH and legal ones like creatine, etc. -- one class is simply more effective (and in some cases, damaging) than the other, but none of it is natural or "fair" to those who do not use.

Snipes16
04-18-2011, 08:09 AM
I can swallow that overall argument to justify his usage when the roid testing was lax that helped make himself the 200+ million over the last 10 years.

But really now, at the end of his career when he was lucky enough to find a desperate team that was willing to pay him 2 million on a 1 year deal or a measly 1% of what he made over the last 10 years and he keeps using knowing full well that if he's caught as a 2 time loser, then he'll just up and quit? And all you hear are the masses saying how "sad" it was that his career ended this way. Theres nothing sad about him getting caught again. That kind of arrogance is not sad, it is disgraceful, especially when everyone knows the testing nowadays is much more strict.

What was the point in him even coming back this year? the money? please. The love of the game? ha. He had to be dragged to All Star games he made. Had he not ever been caught and later on inducted into the HOF there would have been a pretty good chance he wouldn't have even shown up at his own induction anyways...Manny being Manny

dw13
04-18-2011, 08:32 AM
I didn't say I would turn down that offer, but I would surely expect to be called an idiot. Manny is an idiot. Bonds is an idiot. Sosa is an idiot. Not just because it makes you a cheat, because of the health effects as well.

and ih8music, you already stated the difference one is legal and one isn't. It's that simple. Creatine and other supplements like jack3d aren't comparable to steroids.

I've never enjoyed baseball more than I have to this day. The amount of awesome pitchers, the amount of pitcher duals in games is really awesome. That includes Barry's chase, Sosa/Mark's dual. I enjoy baseball how it is NOW.

You'll never convince me differently about people who use steroids. It's illegal for a reason.

Doctego
04-18-2011, 09:13 AM
How did he cheat the people that paid him his money? He was the best right handed hitter in the game outside of Albert Pujols for a decade. Considering a franchise paid him to be a great hitter, he more than lived up to his end.

Look, I don't know what kind of moral rediculousness you have, but I'm telling you right now, and I truly believe this, and always have, and always will...

If I were Bill Gates, and I walked up to you and said, "Take steroids for the next 5 years and play a sport, and I will give you $100,000,000"(or MORE than that in his case), and you said no...not only are you a fucking idiot, YOU'RE the irresponsible one.

Everyone acts like this is some grave injustice, this is a complete victimless crime except yourself. You're choosing to eventually be the victim, by putting yourself at risk of health complications associated with steroids. The money that's thrown around these sports these days isn't just life changing money. 1 million dollars is life changing. 100 million dollars changes the lives of your family for GENERATIONS if used properly.

The team you played for isn't victimized, you were great. Fans aren't victimized, they get to see a show. Even knowing what we know now, is anyone actually going to tell me that the Sosa/McGwire HR chases weren't the most exciting things in baseball the last 15 years? Same with Bonds, I remember tuning in to Giants games nightly as he started to approach 70...

They cheated. That's awful. But don't sit there and act like you, or I, wouldn't do the same thing given the opportunity, because there's no way you wouldn't. This is an absolutely asenine amount of money at the end of the rainbow, and for what? To cheat at a game?

Manny Ramirez is a cheater. He's a goofball. But making a decision to use steroids isn't "stupid", or "insane". It's a very rational decision to make.

Even if you're a liar and you disagree with the fact that you'd turn down the chance for that money if you were in a similar situation(and yes I'm calling you a liar if you say that because you are, I don't think there's anything you could ask me to do, outside of killing a person, for that much money that I'd say no to. That's realist. I wouldn't kill because that's having a very real, permanant, lasting, damaging affect on another life or lives for my own benefit. Steroids is not comperable in any way.), to dismiss making that decision as "stupid", is infact, "stupid".

Your comparisons are slightly flawed, IMHO. I assume that he was already a millionaire so comparing his situation with yours or mine isn't quite right. If either of us was approached by Bill Gates and accepted the money, that is our choice but we are also going to have to take the fall when we get caught. Understandable doesn't mean acceptable.

The biggest reason why your logic is flawed is simple mathematics. Unless I am missing something, he signed with the Red Sox in December of 2000, with the contract taking effect during the 2001 season and beyond. By all counts, he got busted for using PED's while playing for the Dodgers and then the Rays. He was also apparently on the positive list for the 2003 anonymous survey that MLB conducted. By my count, any documented drug use by Manny was after he already got his $160M payday. He already got his money. His subsequent use was about greed and stupidity.

My stance on steroid use has changed slightly over the years but I can tell you why I give a shit. Right or wrong, baseball is about the numbers. Always has been. No one gives a shit about the numbers of other sports. People remember 714, 755, 56, etc. No one knows how many rushing yards Emmitt Smith has or how many points Kareem has. Steroid use matters in those sports but, in baseball, it taints the numbers. What I think it's going to take to lessen the outrage about this is for someone to get elected into the HOF only to find out after the fact that they used PED's.

dw13
04-18-2011, 09:23 AM
Understandable doesn't mean acceptable.

That's pretty much my stance summed up.

ih8music
04-18-2011, 11:18 AM
My stance on steroid use has changed slightly over the years but I can tell you why I give a shit. Right or wrong, baseball is about the numbers. Always has been. No one gives a shit about the numbers of other sports. People remember 714, 755, 56, etc. No one knows how many rushing yards Emmitt Smith has or how many points Kareem has. Steroid use matters in those sports but, in baseball, it taints the numbers. What I think it's going to take to lessen the outrage about this is for someone to get elected into the HOF only to find out after the fact that they used PED's.
I don't disagree with that at all, but my point is that there are plenty of "legal" things that players use/do today which also skew the numbers to their advantage. The average pro athlete today is much bigger, faster & stronger than ever before. Does that make it easier to hit a curve ball? Probably not, but when he makes contact a lot more is going to happen.

I just think the distinction between guys who use steroids and guys who use advanced training and "sports medicine" is a blurry one at best.

b_illin
04-18-2011, 11:51 AM
Manny Ramirez is a cheater. He's a goofball. But making a decision to use steroids isn't "stupid", or "insane". It's a very rational decision to make.

Even if you're a liar and you disagree with the fact that you'd turn down the chance for that money if you were in a similar situation(and yes I'm calling you a liar if you say that because you are, I don't think there's anything you could ask me to do, outside of killing a person, for that much money that I'd say no to. That's realist. I wouldn't kill because that's having a very real, permanant, lasting, damaging affect on another life or lives for my own benefit. Steroids is not comperable in any way.), to dismiss making that decision as "stupid", is infact, "stupid".

I might have agreed with you when he was being paid $20mm/yr, but why would he risk tarnishing his image further for a $2mm swan song in TBay? ($2mm is a drop in the bucket given his career earnings...and if he needed the money, than he's stupid for having squandered so much of past earnings)

That is stupid any way you look at it.


I can swallow that overall argument to justify his usage when the roid testing was lax that helped make himself the 200+ million over the last 10 years.

But really now, at the end of his career when he was lucky enough to find a desperate team that was willing to pay him 2 million on a 1 year deal or a measly 1% of what he made over the last 10 years and he keeps using knowing full well that if he's caught as a 2 time loser, then he'll just up and quit? And all you hear are the masses saying how "sad" it was that his career ended this way. Theres nothing sad about him getting caught again. That kind of arrogance is not sad, it is disgraceful, especially when everyone knows the testing nowadays is much more strict.

What was the point in him even coming back this year? the money? please. The love of the game? ha. He had to be dragged to All Star games he made. Had he not ever been caught and later on inducted into the HOF there would have been a pretty good chance he wouldn't have even shown up at his own induction anyways...Manny being Manny

This

Lemelin is Pulgasari
04-18-2011, 04:16 PM
Sucks one of my favorites.

Same. Certain people always loved to criticize Manny and the way he played and 'approached' the game, but I loved it. He was funny as hell. Aloof and childlike. The Manny/Pedro era was epic.

CayugaPosse
04-20-2011, 03:26 AM
To clarify, I'm not saying Manny's a great guy for doing it, and I'm not saying he's not a cheater. I'm just saying it's understandable.

Doc, I guess we do fundamentally disagree on one point about Manny, and that's the dates that he was "caught" using steroids meaning that's the only time he was on them. If he was caught during that initial test in 2003, I'd bet my life he was on them for years beforehand as well, and hence his $200 million comes, at least partially, from steroids.

The other thing is there's no denying these guys had talent, steroids doesn't make you a world beating hitter. Ask Greg Zaun. But if you're already remarkable, and steroids gets you over the top to absolute super stardom and the stupid money that comes with it, I completely understand the logic in taking the steroids. Yes you put your own health at risk, but people have put themselves at way more risk, for way less money, and continue to every day.

Lastly, I don't understand the "tarnish his reputation more" line everyone keeps throwing around about this most recent time. His reputation was already the same as Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Rodriguez and others. Cheater. Multi-time cheater doesn't change anything. Cheater is cheater. How many times he got caught has little to no impact on it, and if he felt like he "needed" the steroids to land on a team and make one final run at getting a contract, again, that's arguably even more rational that the initial drug use. He had NOTHING to lose this time, his reputation was already shit on, so getting caught again wasn't going to do much of anything.

This argument is the reason I liked the book "Game of Shadows", because it didn't just come out and blast Barry Bonds for doing steroids. It explained what he did, but also got into the psychology of understanding why he would do it, and didn't just paint him as some lifetime supervillain. The chapters, or anecdotes about him being one of the best players of the era, but no one having a clue who he was, and watching McGwire and Sosa grab all the headlines while they were juicing, and that jealousy being the root cause of his decision to use steroids was a fascinating look at it.

I think all too often people just take drug tests and just blanket all these things on it like "idiot", without realizing that although they chose to cheat, most had a reason for doing it that can't really be viewed as "stupid", so much as a product of a generation that essentially glorified the users.

Doctego
04-20-2011, 09:45 AM
Lastly, I don't understand the "tarnish his reputation more" line everyone keeps throwing around about this most recent time. His reputation was already the same as Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Rodriguez and others. Cheater. Multi-time cheater doesn't change anything. Cheater is cheater. How many times he got caught has little to no impact on it, and if he felt like he "needed" the steroids to land on a team and make one final run at getting a contract, again, that's arguably even more rational that the initial drug use. He had NOTHING to lose this time, his reputation was already shit on, so getting caught again wasn't going to do much of anything.

I can't agree with that. Let's take 2 guys that got caught for using PED's: Manny and A-Rod. Both clearly have 1st ballot HOF numbers. Forget about the unknown. For all we know, they both used PED's for over a decade. Let's look at the "evidence". Manny tested positive 2 times. 3 if you include the 2003 survey testing. A-Rod got caught once. Manny made up excuses with the Dodgers, got caught again, and ran away from the game. A-Rod got caught once and admitted that he took PED's. While I believe that his apology was pretty weak, he at least had the balls to admit guilt. Most people, at least those without a completely biased opinion, will think better of A-Rod than Manny. Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat. Assuming that he has no more positive tests, I don't see how they will be thought of as the same by most.

dw13
04-20-2011, 10:01 AM
I can't agree with that. Let's take 2 guys that got caught for using PED's: Manny and A-Rod. Both clearly have 1st ballot HOF numbers. Forget about the unknown. For all we know, they both used PED's for over a decade. Let's look at the "evidence". Manny tested positive 2 times. 3 if you include the 2003 survey testing. A-Rod got caught once. Manny made up excuses with the Dodgers, got caught again, and ran away from the game. A-Rod got caught once and admitted that he took PED's. While I believe that his apology was pretty weak, he at least had the balls to admit guilt. Most people, at least those without a completely biased opinion, will think better of A-Rod than Manny. Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat. Assuming that he has no more positive tests, I don't see how they will be thought of as the same by most.

Agree completely. A-Rod was caught even before he apologized but he got out there, apologized (even if it was a shit apology) and people have started to forgive him and move on. A-Rod has started well this season, and hasn't been as horrible like Manny since he tested.

When Manny tested positive, it was the end of Manny completely. It was clear he was doing something for most of his career, even though it was in his late stages he was busted it was still apparent to me (someone who watches the Dodgers nightly) that he was done without his supplement.

The simple fact that Manny has made up excuses and ran away from the game makes him the real idiot we all think he is.

Doctego
04-20-2011, 10:15 AM
Agree completely. A-Rod was caught even before he apologized but he got out there, apologized (even if it was a shit apology) and people have started to forgive him and move on. A-Rod has started well this season, and hasn't been as horrible like Manny since he tested.

When Manny tested positive, it was the end of Manny completely. It was clear he was doing something for most of his career, even though it was in his late stages he was busted it was still apparent to me (someone who watches the Dodgers nightly) that he was done without his supplement.

The simple fact that Manny has made up excuses and ran away from the game makes him the real idiot we all think he is.

Good point. Whether true or not, the perception of Manny has been that, ever since he got caught, he has sucked. A-Rod has continued to produce after tougher testing policies and no more positive tests.

eff1ngham
04-20-2011, 01:15 PM
To be fair though, Manny's big drop off in production came when he was, what, 38 years old. It seems that A-Rod keeps himself in pretty good shape compared to Manny, but let's see where he's at in three more years

dw13
04-20-2011, 01:26 PM
I know Manny was a bit older, but for me, it was definitely clear his power was sapped when he was busted.

CayugaPosse
04-20-2011, 07:46 PM
I can't agree with that. Let's take 2 guys that got caught for using PED's: Manny and A-Rod. Both clearly have 1st ballot HOF numbers. Forget about the unknown. For all we know, they both used PED's for over a decade. Let's look at the "evidence". Manny tested positive 2 times. 3 if you include the 2003 survey testing. A-Rod got caught once. Manny made up excuses with the Dodgers, got caught again, and ran away from the game. A-Rod got caught once and admitted that he took PED's. While I believe that his apology was pretty weak, he at least had the balls to admit guilt. Most people, at least those without a completely biased opinion, will think better of A-Rod than Manny. Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat. Assuming that he has no more positive tests, I don't see how they will be thought of as the same by most.

It's not going to matter much for either. Mark McGwire, if I'm not mistaken, has never actually been caught nor has any proof against him that he did steroids, and yet the HOF won't be calling his name anytime soon.

None of these guys are getting in...don't think caught once or caught three times is changing that.

dw13
04-20-2011, 08:11 PM
It's not going to matter much for either. Mark McGwire, if I'm not mistaken, has never actually been caught nor has any proof against him that he did steroids, and yet the HOF won't be calling his name anytime soon.

None of these guys are getting in...don't think caught once or caught three times is changing that.

McGwuire had to confront it to become part of the StL staff, or something like that.

I'm pretty sure A-Rod will get in, but it'll be awhile til we find out!

b_illin
04-21-2011, 09:15 AM
It's not going to matter much for either. Mark McGwire, if I'm not mistaken, has never actually been caught nor has any proof against him that he did steroids, and yet the HOF won't be calling his name anytime soon.

None of these guys are getting in...don't think caught once or caught three times is changing that.

ARod will get in and I also think Bonds will get in eventually - as you eluded to in an earlier post, he didn't start til the late 90's to keep up with McGwire/Sosa and had a HOF'esque first 10 or so yrs to his career. It will be interesting to see how much his being a giant asshole plays into things though.

dw13
04-21-2011, 09:42 AM
Bonds isn't sniffing the Hall of Fame, Bill. He was a dick to the media even before this whole deal and now with everything going down, he's certainly not going to be getting in.

b_illin
04-21-2011, 10:12 AM
He put up HOF numbers in the first decade of career when I think we can all agree he wasn't juicing....dude was amazing in PIT, but he was more the complete player than the power bat...and the fans wanted power bats. I'd have to think that would get recognized...or I'd hope because his being a dick aside, he had a HOF career (before and after the juice)

two24four
04-21-2011, 10:16 AM
I have heard media members who have a vote say on the radio etc.... that they will not be voting for Bonds to get in, most of the media just don't like him.

Doctego
04-21-2011, 10:26 AM
He put up HOF numbers in the first decade of career when I think we can all agree he wasn't juicing....dude was amazing in PIT, but he was more the complete player than the power bat...and the fans wanted power bats. I'd have to think that would get recognized...or I'd hope because his being a dick aside, he had a HOF career (before and after the juice)

I have said before that I think it's going to take someone getting in, only to find out after the fact that he juiced. That will open the door for more juicers to get in, IMHO. Once that happens, Bonds will get in because he was the best of the cheaters or at least 2nd best behind A-Rod when both are done playing.

Doctego
04-21-2011, 10:27 AM
I have heard media members who have a vote say on the radio etc.... that they will not be voting for Bonds to get in, most of the media just don't like him.

That's where these assholes need to get off of their high horses. If they don't think his numbers warrant election, fine (although they would be idiots to think that). If they don't want to elect him because he juiced, fine. If they don't want to elect him because they don't like him, that's moronic.

ih8music
04-21-2011, 12:05 PM
I know I'm in the minority here, but I really think the HOF voters have no choice but to consider this to be the PED era, and elect the best player(s) of this era into the Hall. It's not like Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, A-Rod, etc. were the only ones to have "cheated" -- they're just the most prominent guys to have gotten caught. But I can assure you, up and down the roster of every major and minor league team, you have guys using legal and illegal PEDs, supplements, etc. that were virtually unavailable in prior years.

Also - let's not forget that that use of speed & barbituates was pretty rampant in MLB clubhouses during the 70's & 80's. Should we put an asterisk next to those guys' numbers because they were taking drugs to overcome the schedule & travel grind? No one got caught back then because no one was testing. MLB didn't care -- just like they didn't care about steroids until public/gov't pressure made them care.

dw13
04-21-2011, 12:10 PM
I don't really have an opinion either way, I merely argue what the HOF voters will do, not what I think they should do, I suppose.

eff1ngham
04-21-2011, 06:55 PM
Also - let's not forget that that use of speed & barbituates was pretty rampant in MLB clubhouses during the 70's & 80's. Should we put an asterisk next to those guys' numbers because they were taking drugs to overcome the schedule & travel grind?

There was a time when black players weren't allowed to play, yet players in the majors during that time are in the hall of fame. There was a time when a win was given to the starting pitcher of the game rather than the pitcher who was pitching at the actual winning inning. Yet those records were never altered based on the rules used today.

Baseball is full of asterisks, but for some reason people only want to point out that guys like Bonds juiced and their records are tarnished and they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. It's silly IMO

Doctego
04-22-2011, 07:50 AM
There was a time when black players weren't allowed to play, yet players in the majors during that time are in the hall of fame. There was a time when a win was given to the starting pitcher of the game rather than the pitcher who was pitching at the actual winning inning. Yet those records were never altered based on the rules used today.

Baseball is full of asterisks, but for some reason people only want to point out that guys like Bonds juiced and their records are tarnished and they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. It's silly IMO

For me, it's about 2 wrongs not making a right. If something is wrong in the past, we can either continue to do the same shit or we can attempt to rectify it moving forward. Using your black players example, at least you can say that everyone was on a level playing field in that they all played against white players. Making the HOF from that era simply means that you were the best of the best against the white players. Still sucks but consistent. With PED use, there's no consistency.

keyboard
04-22-2011, 04:24 PM
Manny is an idiot. Bonds is an idiot. Sosa is an idiot. Not just because it makes you a cheat, because of the health effects as well.They are only idiots because they got "caught". That's it. Anyone who believes that a majority of MLB wasn't on some kind of performance enhancing substance (legal at the time or not) is become ridiculously ignorant.

Using steroids doesn't make you an idiot, fuck, I doubt most of these guys even felt they had a choice. If it was between getting to the big leagues or toiling in AA while having to work a second job, steroids makes a shit ton of sense. You'd be an idiot not to if anything.

Getting caught when all these other guys didn't does make you quite the idiot though, no doubt about that.

I actually think the biggest idiots are any of you guys who accept the apologies of steroid users. If you so fucking badly want to believe that cheaters can be forgiven, then just get over steroids being so taboo. You'll sleep easier at night instead of having to believe A-Rod gives a shit what you actually think of him. That is just kind of sad.


The other thing is there's no denying these guys had talent, steroids doesn't make you a world beating hitter. Ask Greg Zaun. But if you're already remarkable, and steroids gets you over the top to absolute super stardom and the stupid money that comes with it, I completely understand the logic in taking the steroids. Yes you put your own health at risk, but people have put themselves at way more risk, for way less money, and continue to every day.Exactly.

Because most of us live very unremarkable lives, maybe it's hard to really understand just how tantalizing of an offer it is but think of it this way. If you could have a chance to have a threesome with two gorgeous women while being married, would you do it? Now there's a chance you'll get caught, but you'd have to be really fucking stupid to have that happen.

That's what steroids in baseball are.


He had NOTHING to lose this time, his reputation was already shit on, so getting caught again wasn't going to do much of anything.Agreed. He had no reputation at that time, most people just had a nostalgic memory of him anyway. If anything I think the guy knew there was a good chance he would get caught but figured who gives a shit for the money. Again, this comes down to the fact that so many baseball fans think athletes actually care what they think. It's laughable. You pay money to sit and pretend like your opinions matter to these guys while they drive cars you wouldn't be allowed to touch and fuck women you wouldn't be allowed to talk to.

Manny is a fucking modern day capitalist hero. Good for him. Better to be a cheating rich superstar than an honest broke nobody.


A-Rod got caught once and admitted that he took PED's. While I believe that his apology was pretty weak, he at least had the balls to admit guilt. Most people, at least those without a completely biased opinion, will think better of A-Rod than Manny. Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat.Don't you find it kind of hilarious how you have different levels of cheater? Last time I checked a cheater is a cheater. All of you should ask your significant others if they believe someone who cheats can be seen as anything other than a cheater ever again. Not going to happen.

It's stupid that anyone thinks A-Rod had integrity for admitting he cheated. It wasn't integrity, it was a PR move and definitely was not his idea and definitely wouldn't have happened had he not been caught.

True character would have been to admit it happened if no one accused him but what kind of IDIOT would do that? See how I tied it all together there?

dw13
04-22-2011, 04:31 PM
"Would you have a 3some with 2 beautiful women even though you're married" and you think the general answer is Yes and if not you're fucking stupid? Ahhh...

:scared:

keyboard
04-22-2011, 05:00 PM
"Would you have a 3some with 2 beautiful women even though you're married" and you think the general answer is Yes and if not you're fucking stupid? Ahhh...

:scared:
You really butchered my quote there, pal.

dw13
04-22-2011, 05:36 PM
You really butchered my quote there, pal.

Not at all. You said people who wouldn't have sex with 2 beautiful women while married are 'fucking stupid'

That's just stupid.

keyboard
04-22-2011, 08:09 PM
Not at all. You said people who wouldn't have sex with 2 beautiful women while married are 'fucking stupid'

That's just stupid.Time to go back to school, your reading comprehension could use the work.

secol
04-22-2011, 08:52 PM
butchered or not i think his point (which i think is valid) is that there are some men who don't just follow their dicks all the time

dw13
04-22-2011, 09:06 PM
Hah.

Doctego
04-22-2011, 10:34 PM
Because most of us live very unremarkable lives, maybe it's hard to really understand just how tantalizing of an offer it is but think of it this way. If you could have a chance to have a threesome with two gorgeous women while being married, would you do it? Now there's a chance you'll get caught, but you'd have to be really fucking stupid to have that happen.

You can continue to use outrageous examples to try to make your point but it doesn't change a thing. If you or anyone else wants the threesome, knock yourself out. Just don't come on here after the fact and try to justify it. It's wrong and, if you get caught, you're still wrong, no matter how many people are in line behind you looking for sloppy seconds.


Manny is a fucking modern day capitalist hero. Good for him. Better to be a cheating rich superstar than an honest broke nobody.

And that is completely retarded. 1 of 2 scenarios happened:

1. Manny never touched PED's prior to 2003.
2. Manny took PED's prior to 2003 but never got caught.

Either way, he was in the clear. He also had a signed contract that gave him $160M. No matter what he did after December of 2000, he was getting that money so there's really no need for the rich vs. broke comparison. The 2003 survey didn't really count for much and he was already on his new Dodgers deal when he was first caught so he already earned the $160M. Hardly a scenario where anyone can justify him juicing.

CayugaPosse
04-23-2011, 02:32 AM
You can continue to use outrageous examples to try to make your point but it doesn't change a thing. If you or anyone else wants the threesome, knock yourself out. Just don't come on here after the fact and try to justify it. It's wrong and, if you get caught, you're still wrong, no matter how many people are in line behind you looking for sloppy seconds.



And that is completely retarded. 1 of 2 scenarios happened:

1. Manny never touched PED's prior to 2003.
2. Manny took PED's prior to 2003 but never got caught.

Either way, he was in the clear. He also had a signed contract that gave him $160M. No matter what he did after December of 2000, he was getting that money so there's really no need for the rich vs. broke comparison. The 2003 survey didn't really count for much and he was already on his new Dodgers deal when he was first caught so he already earned the $160M. Hardly a scenario where anyone can justify him juicing.

So you're saying he should have taken steroids up until 2000 when he signed the new contract and then just stopped suddenly?

Doctego
04-23-2011, 07:07 AM
So you're saying he should have taken steroids up until 2000 when he signed the new contract and then just stopped suddenly?

Meh. I don't really want to argue this any longer. You guys want to justify it and I don't. I'll just leave it at that.

keyboard
04-23-2011, 10:06 AM
butchered or not i think his point (which i think is valid) is that there are some men who don't just follow their dicks all the timeOkay. Let's bring it to a more decent example. When you drive and you speed, thus breaking the speed limit, you know you run the risk of getting caught but if you don't speed you won't make your meeting/dinner/funeral on time, so you justify it. If you don't speed and you're late, you may miss out on an opportunity that affects your income/lifestyle/well being.

So, we speed breaking the law and knowing it's stupid if we get caught because had we left 10 minutes earlier we wouldn't have to but if it's between being late to a job interview or risking getting caught, a ticket, possible points and insurance implications, we justify it. Even thought it's really stupid to get caught speeding because you just didn't leave earlier.

Now, that's a job interview/meeting/dinner date... how about if it was a chance to make a million dollars? What would you be willing to do to get to that meeting and there was a chance you might be late? Plus, what are the chances you'll get pulled over for doing 10-20 over? Everyone does it, right? It's getting caught that makes you look like an idiot, not the act itself.


It's wrong and, if you get caught, you're still wrong, no matter how many people are in line behind you looking for sloppy seconds.Now you say that but you also say:
Sure, they are both cheaters but Manny has been proven a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. A-Rod really has only been proven a cheat.So even if your wife catches you, apparently if you apologize you think she'll think better of you. I'd love to see how that conversation actually goes down.

Also, I don't get the sloppy seconds reference.

Doctego
04-23-2011, 11:23 AM
I am not talking about my opinion about A-Rod vs. Manny. I am talking about the overall opinion in the media, public, etc. People in the Toronto area can hardly be objective about A-Rod due to their hatred for him but let's forget about that for a second. A-Rod apologized and was seen in a better light in many eyes. Manny offered up lame excuses and was never seen the same way about A-Rod. You can point out that both are cheaters and you are right. You aren't the judge and jury in this, though. The bottom line is that if you polled 1,000 people and asked what their opinions are on A-Rod re: PED's and Manny re: PED's, you would more than likely get more favorable opinions on A-Rod.

I refuse to justify a bad action based on how many people do it or would do it. PED use as well as adultery is wrong. It doesn't matter what your reasons are for doing it. It's wrong. If someone chooses to do it, that is their decision and they have to live with the consequences. No lame bullshit excuses after the fact.

b_illin
04-23-2011, 12:12 PM
The way ARod came out (and subsequently 'apologzied') made me see him in a worse light frankly - I highly doubt it was his idea and it showed he cares too much about his image. Love Manny or hate him, he stuck to his guns, which, as crazy as it sounds, I can respect. He got paid a lot of money to perform at a high level....and he did. He was kind of foolish about it towards the end, but at least he wasn't tearing up pretending to be sorry, etc.

A friends dad who is a cop once told me to never, ever admit whatever a cop wants you admit. Eg. did you have a quick pull on a joint? Come on, I won't bust you, I just want to hear the truth. No officer, no idea what you're talking about.

I don't think admitting to steroids, at least the way ARod did it, is any braver or less cowardly than continually denying it. (end of the day though, I don't really care - I find it laughable the way the whole ordeal has been played out South of the border)

Doctego
04-23-2011, 01:42 PM
That's fine. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that feel that way. There are also a lot of people that would have a problem with A-Rod if he saved a child from a burning house.

b_illin
04-23-2011, 02:32 PM
For the record, it could be anyone other than ARod and I am pretty sure I'd still feel the same way. Public apologies are so stupid in this type of situation. (as I doubt there is legitimate remorse and I don't think these players owe the fans anything...seeing as the same fans were loving all the long-balls for years!)

Doctego
04-23-2011, 02:54 PM
For the record, it could be anyone other than ARod and I am pretty sure I'd still feel the same way. Public apologies are so stupid in this type of situation. (as I doubt there is legitimate remorse and I don't think these players owe the fans anything...seeing as the same fans were loving all the long-balls for years!)

The fact is that you can't please everyone. Either he apologizes and gets called a fraud or he doesn't and gets called an asshole that doesn't give a shit. I think that history will look kinder on A-Rod because he apologized.