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alias
07-02-2010, 09:19 PM
TSN & The Globe & Mail are teaming up to present a 6 part series which will air on TSN starting Monday:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326388



It is the topic of some of the most heated debates in Canadian sport: Why shouldn't there be another NHL franchise in Canada? In a joint venture between TSN and The Globe and Mail, the investigative series Why Not Canada? makes definite conclusions regarding the possibility of the addition of an NHL franchise in a Canadian market.
Led by veteran journalist Dave Naylor, the Why Not Canada? series analyzes new wide-ranging and in-depth socio-economic data that clearly illustrates the viability of an NHL franchise expanding or relocating in the Winnipeg, Hamilton, the Greater Toronto Area and Quebec City markets.

The multiplatform investigation includes a six-part series on SportsCentre beginning Monday, accompanied by daily features in The Globe and Mail and online at globeandmail.com. TSN.ca will also have a dedicated Why Not Canada? page beginning Monday with written features, video and in-depth statistical breakdowns for the Winnipeg, Hamilton, the Greater Toronto Area and Quebec City markets.

“Six of the league's 30 teams are located here, yet estimates are that more than 30 per cent of NHL revenue comes from Canada,” says Naylor. “Many Canadians ask themselves: if U.S. franchises are struggling, Why Not Canada? We will look at that question and try to separate the emotion from the facts to definitively answer if another franchise could survive in Canada.”

As part of the Why Not Canada? series Naylor has spent months examining the case for an NHL franchise in four Canadian markets looking at as many angles as possible. Naylor turns to a host of leading economists, market research specialists, potential owners, competition lawyers and fans for input. Other important factors taken into consideration for each market include existing arenas, corporate presence, regional interest in hockey and demographics. Based on Naylor's research, a formula was developed based on quantitative facts that assigns a grade based on the realistic viability of an NHL franchise in each of the four Canadian markets in question.

As part of the series, Naylor sits down with NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman for his opinion and reactions to the research regarding each of the potential Canadian NHL markets considered.

The broadcast schedule for Why Not Canada? on SportsCentre and TSN.ca:

- Monday, July 5 – Part 1: Introduction to Why Not Canada?
- Tuesday, July 6 – Part 2: Winnipeg
- Wednesday, July 7 – Part 3: Hamilton
- Thursday, July 8 – Part 4: Greater Toronto Area
- Friday, July 9 – Part 5: Quebec City
- Saturday, July 10 – Part 6: Conclusions

bearcats
07-02-2010, 09:40 PM
the only reason more franchises are not in Canada is becasue Bettman simply does not want that.....he wants teams in the USA and he wants that for the almighty TV revenue....

Us Canadians know that hockey will never catch on to the extent that the NHL gets a big TV revenue with the likes of ESPN...but Bettman is h*ll bent on trying this to the point where he will have numerous franchises in US markets struggling to sell tickets and go Millions and MIllions in debt each year......

There should be a team in Winnipeg, Quebec City, another in Southern Ontario, one in Saskatchewan that would play half its home games in Saskatoon and the other half in Regina... maybe even one on the east coast........

In any case this will not happen while Bettman is in charge....listen to how Bettman evades answers about questions of Canadian expansion...I know he is a lawyer so evading questions is what they do...

let me ask you this?

why did Bettman not go through the extreme measures to save the winnipeg /quebec franchises from moving like he is doing with the yotes?

heck if I am not mistaken did he not fire the GM/president of the yotes the other day????

if you ask me that is collusion, the league itself has control of one of the teams in the league casue they are losing millions upon millions every year and the league itself is controlling its operations.....

the NHL is screwed big time if they leave BETTMAN in his role.....

WIS
07-02-2010, 09:59 PM
the only reason more franchises are not in Canada is becasue Bettman simply does not want that.....he wants teams in the USA and he wants that for the almighty TV revenue....

Us Canadians know that hockey will never catch on to the extent that the NHL gets a big TV revenue with the likes of ESPN...but Bettman is h*ll bent on trying this to the point where he will have numerous franchises in US markets struggling to sell tickets and go Millions and MIllions in debt each year......

There should be a team in Winnipeg, Quebec City, another in Southern Ontario, one in Saskatchewan that would play half its home games in Saskatoon and the other half in Regina... maybe even one on the east coast........

In any case this will not happen while Bettman is in charge....listen to how Bettman evades answers about questions of Canadian expansion...I know he is a lawyer so evading questions is what they do...

let me ask you this?

why did Bettman not go through the extreme measures to save the winnipeg /quebec franchises from moving like he is doing with the yotes?

heck if I am not mistaken did he not fire the GM/president of the yotes the other day????

if you ask me that is collusion, the league itself has control of one of the teams in the league casue they are losing millions upon millions every year and the league itself is controlling its operations.....

the NHL is screwed big time if they leave BETTMAN in his role.....
Excellent post. That's it folks.

CayugaPosse
07-02-2010, 11:10 PM
the only reason more franchises are not in Canada is becasue Bettman simply does not want that.....he wants teams in the USA and he wants that for the almighty TV revenue....

Us Canadians know that hockey will never catch on to the extent that the NHL gets a big TV revenue with the likes of ESPN...but Bettman is h*ll bent on trying this to the point where he will have numerous franchises in US markets struggling to sell tickets and go Millions and MIllions in debt each year......

There should be a team in Winnipeg, Quebec City, another in Southern Ontario, one in Saskatchewan that would play half its home games in Saskatoon and the other half in Regina... maybe even one on the east coast........

In any case this will not happen while Bettman is in charge....listen to how Bettman evades answers about questions of Canadian expansion...I know he is a lawyer so evading questions is what they do...

let me ask you this?

why did Bettman not go through the extreme measures to save the winnipeg /quebec franchises from moving like he is doing with the yotes?

heck if I am not mistaken did he not fire the GM/president of the yotes the other day????

if you ask me that is collusion, the league itself has control of one of the teams in the league casue they are losing millions upon millions every year and the league itself is controlling its operations.....

the NHL is screwed big time if they leave BETTMAN in his role.....

I assume that basic human logic dictates you understand WHY he wants teams in the largest markets in the USA correct? Because that's good for the entire league, unless you actually want all the jokes about Lacrosse and the MLS being bigger than it to actually become factually 100% true and it to become the ultimate niche sport with 10 teams in Canada or something....big markets in the USA tend to be the goal for all major sports....you know, because they're big markets and what not.

This whole argument is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world.

The truth is, Gary Bettman has done so much for Canadian NHL teams it's almost cartoonish that morons north of the border here still think he's Satan.

He kept Ottawa in Ottawa, he easily could have moved the team around the time they filed for bankruptcy and were bouncing checks to their own players. He kept them afloat until Eugene showed up.

He passed the "Canadian Assistance Plan" to make American teams share revenue with Canada because of the dollar differential that was absolutely crippling every Canadian franchise not located 3 blocks from my apartment here in Toronto.

But let's ignore that. He took Winnipeg and Quebec City away from us! Those two booming markets and ultra successful franchises BOTH got stripped away from us! And it's not like he relocated any teams from the USA during that exact same time....what's a Hartford? Minnesota North Stars? Who are they? Why oh why didn't Gary Bettman save Hartford? Oh the humanity!

I'm not saying Bettman is a good GM, not even slightly because he isn't(although he has grown league revenues from $400 million to $2.5 billion during his tenure), but this notion that he has it in for Canada, people really just need to look at facts here.

He didn't let Jim Ballsillie buy a team and move it to Hamilton? Gee, I wonder what other reason there could be for that decision besides a hatred for Canada....

Tell ya what, homework assignment, see if you can think of one other reason Ballsillie wasn't allowed to buy a team and move it to Hamilton. I'll give you a hint : He acted like a fucking idiot rather than going through the proper process.

If you actually think they should take Phoenix, Atlanta, Florida, Tampa, Carolina and Columbus and move them to fucking Quebec City, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Toronto and Halifax....you are so far gone and deluded to the economics of professional sports I can't even slightly help you.

Do you think NBC is lining up to broadcast a Saskatchewan vs Halifax Stanley Cup Finals? Do you think more than 31 households in the entire country of the United States would ever watch that?

Do you want the NHL to be the CFL? If that's your end game, than by all means. I think Bettman, the NHL owners, players, and most NHL fans, have slightly loftier aspirations than that though.

Kyle
07-03-2010, 12:12 AM
Great post Cayuga, I didn't know a lot of that and it certianly sounds like people have ran with word of mouth about Bettman.

Hamsterkill
07-03-2010, 12:39 AM
I assume that basic human logic dictates you understand WHY he wants teams in the largest markets in the USA correct? Because that's good for the entire league, unless you actually want all the jokes about Lacrosse and the MLS being bigger than it to actually become factually 100% true and it to become the ultimate niche sport with 10 teams in Canada or something....big markets in the USA tend to be the goal for all major sports....you know, because they're big markets and what not.

This whole argument is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world.

The truth is, Gary Bettman has done so much for Canadian NHL teams it's almost cartoonish that morons north of the border here still think he's Satan.

He kept Ottawa in Ottawa, he easily could have moved the team around the time they filed for bankruptcy and were bouncing checks to their own players. He kept them afloat until Eugene showed up.

He passed the "Canadian Assistance Plan" to make American teams share revenue with Canada because of the dollar differential that was absolutely crippling every Canadian franchise not located 3 blocks from my apartment here in Toronto.

But let's ignore that. He took Winnipeg and Quebec City away from us! Those two booming markets and ultra successful franchises BOTH got stripped away from us! And it's not like he relocated any teams from the USA during that exact same time....what's a Hartford? Minnesota North Stars? Who are they? Why oh why didn't Gary Bettman save Hartford? Oh the humanity!

I'm not saying Bettman is a good GM, not even slightly because he isn't(although he has grown league revenues from $400 million to $2.5 billion during his tenure), but this notion that he has it in for Canada, people really just need to look at facts here.

He didn't let Jim Ballsillie buy a team and move it to Hamilton? Gee, I wonder what other reason there could be for that decision besides a hatred for Canada....

Tell ya what, homework assignment, see if you can think of one other reason Ballsillie wasn't allowed to buy a team and move it to Hamilton. I'll give you a hint : He acted like a fucking idiot rather than going through the proper process.

If you actually think they should take Phoenix, Atlanta, Florida, Tampa, Carolina and Columbus and move them to fucking Quebec City, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Toronto and Halifax....you are so far gone and deluded to the economics of professional sports I can't even slightly help you.

Do you think NBC is lining up to broadcast a Saskatchewan vs Halifax Stanley Cup Finals? Do you think more than 31 households in the entire country of the United States would ever watch that?

Do you want the NHL to be the CFL? If that's your end game, than by all means. I think Bettman, the NHL owners, players, and most NHL fans, have slightly loftier aspirations than that though.
I was finally about to post all of this myself but you saved me the trouble. Thank you, Cayuga.

keys2aFranchise
07-03-2010, 07:22 AM
There should be a team in Winnipeg, Quebec City, another in Southern Ontario, one in Saskatchewan that would play half its home games in Saskatoon and the other half in Regina... maybe even one on the east coast........


getting a little carried away here. The idea of a team in Saskatachewan that rotates its home games is....well, retarded. Those cities are almost 300 km apart...players would need multiple residence so thats not gonna happen.

East coast can't support industry let alone a professional sports team.

Great post Cayuga

bearcats
07-03-2010, 08:44 AM
so its logical to have a team in phx where hockey is not a passion or part of the culture or played buy thousands of people that live there, they lose well over 20 million dollars per year, have never turned a profit, cant sell tickets have owners that get replaced buy the league itself...

rather than to move a the team to a place like Winnipeg where thousands play the game, hockey is a passion, its part of the culture, they will fill the building, they will make profits, they have an arena, they have potential owners and they will make more money in one month selling merchandise than phx has in its entire tenure...

do you see NBC lining up to televise phx vs nashville?, tampa vs atlanta? no you don't....the only teams that nbc or espn will ever lineup to televise are the teams in the top 10 markets in the usa...

dw13
07-03-2010, 08:47 AM
Dynamite post from Cayuga.

MrScientist
07-03-2010, 09:36 AM
I'm fine with Canada getting two relocated teams or something like that, but it's astounding how many Canadians think that hockey in BFE, Saskatchewan would be better than hockey in Phoenix. Yes, you have a more passionate (in theory) fanbase, but guess what? If there's no corporate support and the fans don't have money, they aren't gonna show up just because they love hockey so much.

Look at Jacksonville in the NFL. Shitty city and the team is in the red. Even though football could be called "America's Sport" like hockey would be Canada's, it still doesn't work by just plugging a team in some place just because it's in the US.

alias
07-03-2010, 12:10 PM
Good post Cayuga. You bring up a good point about Bettman, but most people aren't saying move 5 teams from the US to Canada. I think the NHL would do best with 8 teams in Canada having teams in 2 of these 3 areas, Winnipeg, Southern Ontario, Quebec City. Phoenix is obviously not an NHL market and won't be for quite some time. Maybe it's best to move the Yotes out of there and if in the next decade or so there seems to be more interest put another team there a la Minnesota. Doubt that will happen but that's likely the best route to take with Phoenix. And for the other struggling US teams they could move to other US markets, but clearly if you're going to move a team and want to have the best possible return on that investment it's to put a team into Canada. As bearcats said, if Bettman is solely looking at television rights, those teams aren't getting it done anyways. NBC/ESPN would probably be more likely to show a Winnipeg-Minnesota game than a Phoenix-Minnesota game.

Hamsterkill
07-03-2010, 12:53 PM
Good post Cayuga. You bring up a good point about Bettman, but most people aren't saying move 5 teams from the US to Canada. I think the NHL would do best with 8 teams in Canada having teams in 2 of these 3 areas, Winnipeg, Southern Ontario, Quebec City. Phoenix is obviously not an NHL market and won't be for quite some time. Maybe it's best to move the Yotes out of there and if in the next decade or so there seems to be more interest put another team there a la Minnesota. Doubt that will happen but that's likely the best route to take with Phoenix. And for the other struggling US teams they could move to other US markets, but clearly if you're going to move a team and want to have the best possible return on that investment it's to put a team into Canada. As bearcats said, if Bettman is solely looking at television rights, those teams aren't getting it done anyways. NBC/ESPN would probably be more likely to show a Winnipeg-Minnesota game than a Phoenix-Minnesota game.
I'm pretty sure Bettman has already hinted at the possibility of moving the team to Winnipeg again if they can't find a buyer for the franchise in Phoenix. The NHL prefers not to move a team they don't have to.

That said, the NHL has insisted that Phoenix could be a viable hockey market if they got good management and had some success. Well, for first the first time in their history, Phoenix looks like they could do that so the NHL's theory is at last going to be tested. If it still fails, they'll look to move the team. (Just don't expect their first option to be invading Maple Leaf and Sabre territory -- but they've already said Winnipeg would be a consideration)

Not too sure about Quebec City. Most of the reasons behind the Nordiques' move I imagine would still be present there today.

alias
07-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Not too sure about Quebec City. Most of the reasons behind the Nordiques' move I imagine would still be present there today.

i'm sure we'll find out on Fridays episode ;)

Motorcat
07-03-2010, 04:59 PM
Cayuga - Best post I've read around here in quite awhile. I've had basically the same line of thinking but really have not even cared to put it into words because I was pretty sure I'd have to defend it for multiple pages and days. ...........some battles are just not worth it and to be honest I just don't have the time for it any more.

The only thing I can add is in regards to Phoenix.

I've listened and read some of Bettman's thoughts and he is always talking about future growth - as in 10-15 years down the road. Phoenix may not be a viable franchise right now but the idea is to be ahead of the curve so that when it is viable your not on the outside looking in.

When I was in Texas doing location work for the huge grocery store chain I found that quite a few of their locations were built for the future - as in - population at a certain median income level to support the store. They bit the bullet and went ahead and built now for 3-5 years down the road. if they had of waited those prime locations would of been gone or come at such an expense it would of been impossible to justify.

I'm neutral on Bettman, I don't so much have problems with how or why he does what he does, my issue is that as a communicator he leaves alot to be desired.

phaneuf6
07-03-2010, 05:49 PM
The only thing I can add is in regards to Phoenix.

I've listened and read some of Bettman's thoughts and he is always talking about future growth - as in 10-15 years down the road. Phoenix may not be a viable franchise right now but the idea is to be ahead of the curve so that when it is viable your not on the outside looking in.

When I was in Texas doing location work for the huge grocery store chain I found that quite a few of their locations were built for the future - as in - population at a certain median income level to support the store. They bit the bullet and went ahead and built now for 3-5 years down the road. if they had of waited those prime locations would of been gone or come at such an expense it would of been impossible to justify.


While I understand what you're trying to say here Motor, and it certainly applies for a number of businesses across all markets, I'm not sure it's the proper way to approach a multi-million dollar franchise in a professional sports league.

A supermarket built in a sparsely populated suburb makes sense because urban growth and expansion is happening across the world and you're almost guaranteed that the population within that grocery store's target area will increase. However, we're not dealing with a population issue here, nor something that is guaranteed to grow over time. Obviously interest in hockey will increase in the US, but there's no guarantees that the magnitude of that growth will eventually bring Phoenix up to the level that an NHL franchise should be performing at financially.

Basically all I'm saying is that when you're talking about an 'interest based' business like the NHL runs, there are no guarantees for growth. So while being a step ahead, if you will, by having a franchise in Phoenix makes sense in theory, is it something the NHL wants to rely on? I don't think so.

Motorcat
07-03-2010, 06:39 PM
- in an effort to avoid an ongoing debate ...........My comparison was a generalization I made to try to provide an example of there being other long term issues that the league must consider.

Say what you will about Bettman and his contingency but when this is all boiled down to the core they have more experts researching and studying information that we will never be privy to and considering other factors which some of us have never even thought off. Its not about trying to slight Canada out of a franchise.

Kyle
07-03-2010, 11:01 PM
Its not about trying to slight Canada out of a franchise.


This is ultimately the important point of this thread. But nothing will stop canadians from their random and obsessive need to act victomized and slighted so I highly doubt Cayuga's message will ever be represented by the masses.

I think its crazy that me, a nuetral American, was totally warped into thinking Bettman despises Canada just because of word of mouth. I feel shockingly ignorant towards this subject because its such an accepted opinion in the hockey world that Bettman hates Canada.

Sad thing is I guarentee even a few Canadians around here will read Cayuga's post and still talk about Bettman the same way to any of their buddies because the false info about him is so widely accepted.

Man, now I'm completely questioning my hate for Bettman all around. I know he brought negatives to the league and this can't be disputed and he is clearly a man with flaws, but now it seems that the widely accepted "fact" that he "ruined hockey" is total bullshit and he seemed to do quite the opposite.


This doesn't happen to me often anymore where I realize an opinion I've held for years is based on nothing but false word of mouth. My egos bruised.:lol:

Motorcat
07-04-2010, 09:15 PM
I've found this thread to be one of the more interesting ones I've read and commented on in quite awhile. I actually mentioned it to a couple of my more informed hockey friends close to the Hurricanes.

One of them was quick to address this ..........

quote - Basically all I'm saying is that when you're talking about an 'interest based' business like the NHL runs, there are no guarantees for growth. So while being a step ahead, if you will, by having a franchise in Phoenix makes sense in theory, is it something the NHL wants to rely on? I don't think so.


In essence he said - well just how in the hell are you suppose to "grow interest" in a market without being there and promoting it.

I really wish some of you could see the steps the Hurricanes have made over the last decade to "weave" themselves into being part of the community.

Karmanos has invested a ton of money into youth hockey in the area and it has really begun to pay dividends. Not to even mention charity foundations created by the Hurricanes that benefit the community. They are always finding new ways to establish themselves and even re-establish themselves over and over again. And now with their top minor team relocating to Charlotte (2 hours away) they have begun a campaign to reach outside the local market.

We have come along way in a short period of time. Growing a sport in a non-market can happen, the Hurricanes have done better at it more than some other franchises in non traditional markets. With the right approach it can be done but its only going to happen if the league and/or a franchise is in the area spearheading growth and interest

madsci
07-05-2010, 04:18 PM
But nothing will stop canadians from their random and obsessive need to act victomized and slighted so I highly doubt Cayuga's message will ever be represented by the masses...

Sad thing is I guarentee even a few Canadians around here will read Cayuga's post and still talk about Bettman the same way to any of their buddies because the false info about him is so widely accepted.



whoa, easy there tex... let the record show that cayuga lives in Toronto, and several others who have posted here supporting his opinions are Canadian.

Or is this just an American with his random and obsessive need to act like a loud know-it-all? ;)

Three things about Bettman - first, he gets booed everywhere, and I doubt the Californians at the draft or the Philly fans at the Stanley Cup celebration were doing it out of sympathy for the plight of Canadians. People just hate him because he seems like such a d-bag.

Second, one reason people may hate him is that Bettman presided over the lockout - not the strike, the lockout - the only time a North American sports league canceled an entire season. And for what? Rich teams got richer, poor teams stayed poor. A waste.

Third, and this is important, Bettman's a lawyer. And like all lawyers, he doesn't represent himself, he represents his clients, the NHL owners. The NHL owners call the shots, not Bettman. He's the fall guy, the face. Sure, he's the CEO, and he may exercise leadership, but he answers to the owners.

I agree with cayuga, and I don't blame Bettman for the loss of the Jets and Nordiques. There may be good reasons to put teams there, but there are lots of good reasons not to. Indeed, other Canadian teams may well be against such a thing, since it will inevitably dilute their reach. You're not making new fans in Quebec City, you're just taking them away from the Habs.

alias
07-05-2010, 05:23 PM
You're not making new fans in Quebec City, you're just taking them away from the Habs.

I don't know about that. Most of the old Nords fans hate the Habs and are likely Avs fans if anything. Someone from Quebec will probably know better though. But your point still doesn't make sense. You're not going to make many new fans in any Canadian city, they're already hockey fans. Put a team here in Hamilton & you're taking away from Toronto, Buffalo, Ottawa, Montreal. Same goes for most American cities north of the sun belt. Minnesota was already full of hockey fans, but that didn't prevent the league from putting a team back there. Put a team in the desert and yeah you'll make 10,000 new hockey fans in 10 years. Problem is that isn't enough to support a team. A team taking fans away from Montreal or Toronto will have such a small effect on those two particular teams. Do you really think the ACC or Bell Center will have a hard time filling seats if there's a team in Hamilton or Quebec City?

madsci
07-05-2010, 05:41 PM
^^^ hey alias, I simply mean that there's only really downside for the Canadian teams if another team sets up shop here. More competition for TV rights, more competition to sell merch, etc. Sure, a lot of Quebeckers in "les regions" may cheer for the Avs, but I'd bet as many - especially since Roy retired - cheer for the Habs; but either way, there's no upside. There are two ways the board of governors effectively benefit in the NHL - either you get new fans, or you sell expansion rights that get divvied up among all the owners. Sure, getting the Yotes off the books helps, but it's peanuts when divided among 30+ owners. Compare that to the promise of big US TV contracts (new fans) or $265M expansion fee (the fee cited in AZ court, *ahem*).

My main point is simply that it is unlikely Bettman alone holding back Cdn expansion. There are all sorts of reasons the existing owners might not favor it, with patriotism and civic duty the only reasons to do it (another team in Canada is not going to put more hockey on TV or bump HNIC rights...).

alias
07-05-2010, 05:53 PM
^^^ hey alias, I simply mean that there's only really downside for the Canadian teams if another team sets up shop here. More competition for TV rights, more competition to sell merch, etc. Sure, a lot of Quebeckers in "les regions" may cheer for the Avs, but I'd bet as many - especially since Roy retired - cheer for the Habs; but either way, there's no upside. There are two ways the board of governors effectively benefit in the NHL - either you get new fans, or you sell expansion rights that get divvied up among all the owners. Sure, getting the Yotes off the books helps, but it's peanuts when divided among 30+ owners. Compare that to the promise of big US TV contracts (new fans) or $265M expansion fee (the fee cited in AZ court, *ahem*).

no upside? How about the increased league revenue? I'd bet the league owners would love to have more money in the NHL coffers, benefit from increasing salary caps which gives them the ability to sign bigger and better stars (which of course relates directly to their bottom dollar), have less teams that need financial assistance from the larger teams. A team in Canada helps the NHL as a whole much more than a team in the desert does. It also makes teh league look like less of a joke when you turn on a game and the seats in the arena are actually filled.

I have no problem trying to grow hockey in a market like Phoenix, but as it stands now that region simply cannot support a team and is a drain on the rest of the league. Put a minor hockey team there (I know there's no AHL teams in those parts, but I'm sure there's a decent league on the west coast) and try to grow the game from there. Get some of the kids growing up to start playing competitive hockey, their friends and families will get more into it, and eventually the sport will grow. Will it grow to the point where it can sustain an NHL team? Who knows. But it still is worth trying to grow it there. Maybe it can be a repeat of Minnesota where a team goes back there in the future, but like I said, as of right now it simply cannot sustain an NHL team.

bearcats
07-05-2010, 06:38 PM
if bettman and the nhl put 10% of the effort into keeping the jets/nords in canada that they have put into the phx fiasco they two canadian franchises would still be there and they would be doing just fine...

fact of the matter is that Bettman did not want to do all he could to save those two teams because he WANTED to try and make new markets in the states...like phx/colorado..

was it a success?

colorado = yes
phx = no

Bettman refuses to admit that phx was a mistke....he continues to say that he thinks "phx is a viable market"...

no one can know for sure but it is MY opinion that he is going to the earths end to save phx and create an obsurd burden on the other nhl owners/teams simply because he refuses to admit he made a mistake....

He has also allowed the crazy hit to the heads and the ridiculous equipment to come into the league that is now being used as weapons cause that is what some of it is...but that is a whole other story/thread...

Just my opinion but I hate him and hate the way he constantly refuses to give straight answers when he is questioned...in my world anyone that does that is a snake and has other motives...

having a team in phx losing over 20 million / year is a joke when they could have that team in wpg where they would make profits and have a team that would be well attended, cherished by the fans in a hockey hotbed as opposed to a golf hotbed....

just my 2 cents, I understand that everyone sees things differently but this is how I see the phx situation...

phaneuf6
07-05-2010, 06:50 PM
bearcats, I'm not sure you understand the corporate side of the situation. You can't just stick a team anywhere in Canada and assume it'll work and turn a profit.

And Motor, I understand your friends comment. However, is losing millions of dollars in Phoenix to generate interest really feasible? There are other ways to build an interest without having an actual team there. Maybe other methods wouldn't be as effective, but it certainly wouldn't be as detrimental to the financial status of the league.

bearcats
07-05-2010, 07:07 PM
bearcats, I'm not sure you understand the corporate side of the situation. You can't just stick a team anywhere in Canada and assume it'll work and turn a profit.

And Motor, I understand your friends comment. However, is losing millions of dollars in Phoenix to generate interest really feasible? There are other ways to build an interest without having an actual team there. Maybe other methods wouldn't be as effective, but it certainly wouldn't be as detrimental to the financial status of the league.

I do understand the corporate side of things...the corporate support is there in Manitoba and I might add Canada's thompson family whom has the richest man in Canada...

Corporate support in Quebec city I am not sure of....

Corporate support for a second team in souther ontario, no worries there...

saskatchewan and the east coast I put in my first post just to see if I would get a rise out of some posters and I did...

In any case Bettman would rather see a franchise struggle in a place like phx than thrive in a place like manitoba...

anyone realize that manitoba (along with Sask) has has the best economy in Canada for the past 3-6 years or thereabouts?

Winnipeg/Manitoba can and should have one of the failing us franchises...

Motorcat
07-05-2010, 07:19 PM
Alias - The problem in Phoenix has been stable ownership and a lack of ability to promote the sport of hockey so that it grows.

I am not sure if the plan the Hurricanes used would work in Phoenix but I would say it "probably" would be a good blue print to use as a starting point.

We will never be privy to the information the league has researched in regards to Phoenix but for some unknown reason the league not just Bettman thinks it will work .........why on earth would they be so determined to stay in Phoenix unless they had information at their disposal that says it will work. The owners are in it for the money - don't you think if putting a franchise(s) back in Canada would reap them a wind fall of profits they would do it in a heart beat.

Long story short - there is more to this puzzle than we will ever know about ........... and thats a shame cause I am sure it would be fascinating to know some or all of the details that is driving the league as a whole over the next decade.

phaneuf6
07-05-2010, 07:24 PM
Alias - The problem in Phoenix has been stable ownership and a lack of ability to promote the sport of hockey so that it grows.

I am not sure if the plan the Hurricanes used would work in Phoenix but I would say it "probably" would be a good blue print to use as a starting point.

We will never be privy to the information the league has researched in regards to Phoenix but for some unknown reason the league not just Bettman thinks it will work .........why on earth would they be so determined to stay in Phoenix unless they had information at their disposal that says it will work. The owners are in it for the money - don't you think if putting a franchise(s) back in Canada would reap them a wind fall of profits they would do it in a heart beat.

Long story short - there is more to this puzzle than we will ever know about ........... and thats a shame cause I am sure it would be fascinating to know some or all of the details that is driving the league as a whole over the next decade.

I agree that obviously not all information regarding Phoenix is at our disposal. However, it is possible that Bettman just doesn't want to move the Coyotes because it would be an admission on his part that he made a mistake/his project failed.

Motorcat
07-05-2010, 07:34 PM
I agree that obviously not all information regarding Phoenix is at our disposal. However, it is possible that Bettman just doesn't want to move the Coyotes because it would be an admission on his part that he made a mistake/his project failed.

:wtf:

Its not as simple as Bettman wanting a franchise in Phoenix and refusing to admit he is wrong ......... he has a boss(es) and they love the fact that he has increased revenue for the league for almost his entire tenure. To suggest its simply Bettman being stubborn is just moronic.

For Christ sake - its a business not some high school science project.

bearcats
07-05-2010, 07:52 PM
:wtf:

Its not as simple as Bettman wanting a franchise in Phoenix and refusing to admit he is wrong ......... he has a boss(es) and they love the fact that he has increased revenue for the league for almost his entire tenure. To suggest its simply Bettman being stubborn is just moronic.

For Christ sake - its a business not some high school science project.

so why would they not want to take a team from phx that is costing the entire league millions and put a team in Wpg where they could have even more increased revenue?

I do think that carolina's methods could prove to be a good prototype to follow....

phaneuf6
07-05-2010, 07:54 PM
:wtf:

Its not as simple as Bettman wanting a franchise in Phoenix and refusing to admit he is wrong ......... he has a boss(es) and they love the fact that he has increased revenue for the league for almost his entire tenure. To suggest its simply Bettman being stubborn is just moronic.

For Christ sake - its a business not some high school science project.

Whoa. You can't possibly sit there and suggest that this has nothing to do with it. It's a franchise losing millions of dollars every year. You could move the franchise to Winnipeg for less money than they're moving and be making money as soon as next year.

You said it yourself, it's a business. Profits are the end goal, and obviously that just isn't happening in Phoenix. Bettman's track record with regards to league revenues has certainly bought him some time to try turn things around in Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they're dragging the whole league down and sooner or later something is going to have to be done about it.

If you opened a branch of your landscaping company in a new city and it was constantly losing money from the first year, the smart thing to do would be to shut it down. But it's in our nature to want to fix something that we've done to make it work though. Bettman takes pride in the work he does for the league and Phoenix is part of that. Moving it would be an admission of failure and his pride would take the hit. That's at least PART of the reason he keeps extending things year after year in Phoenix, hoping for a turnaround and an 'I told you so' moment.

Motorcat
07-05-2010, 08:00 PM
so why would they not want to take a team from phx that is costing the entire league millions and put a team in Wpg where they could have even more increased revenue?

I think you missed some points we have been debating for several posts now.

........ its about the league seeing the long term potential of Phoenix.

The whole thread is basically been about future growth and the merits or lack of in Phoenix - scan back thru ........ I think you will see the answer to your question.

Motorcat
07-05-2010, 08:09 PM
quote - If you opened a branch of your landscaping company in a new city and it was constantly losing money from the first year, the smart thing to do would be to shut it down. But it's in our nature to want to fix something that we've done to make it work though. Bettman takes pride in the work he does for the league and Phoenix is part of that. Moving it would be an admission of failure and his pride would take the hit. That's at least PART of the reason he keeps extending things year after year in Phoenix, hoping for a turnaround and an 'I told you so' moment.

But isn't that the point you made to me early in the thread .............. the difference between the NHL and say a grocery store built for the future ?

Its a generalization .......... you can't flip it the other way without contradicting yourself.

I'm beginning to tire of this ............... fascinating topic but its beginning to downward spiral into the all to common circular debate around here that I dread.

I'm ready for hockey ........... least there something tangible to talk about other than ifs and maybes.

bearcats
07-05-2010, 08:12 PM
I think you missed some points we have been debating for several posts now.

........ its about the league seeing the long term potential of Phoenix.

The whole thread is basically been about future growth and the merits or lack of in Phoenix - scan back thru ........ I think you will see the answer to your question.

I am not missing the point at all, the future growth of the a frachise in phx vs winnipeg...manitoba is and has been one of the best economies in canada which has been one of the best economies in the world....vs the economy of pheonix which I will admit I know little about but the economy of the USA is well known and documented to be a disaster and it has a long climb up a steep road to get better....couple that with a market that lives/breathes/eats the culture of hockey vs a market that doesn't.....

madsci
07-05-2010, 08:15 PM
Also, and no offense to my Winnipeg friends, I'm not convinced of the long-term prospects in Winnipeg. I'm not sure it's a slam-dunk. It would be the smallest arena in the league, with the lowest number of luxury boxes. Winnipeg has passionate fans, but would be by far the smallest metropolitan area of any of the Canadian cities. All the current Canadian cities are in metropolitan areas of more than a million people. Quebec City and Winnipeg both have 700K which, passion notwithstanding, would make them the smallest markets in the league, no?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see teams in both cities. I just don't think it's a big conspiracy that they aren't there yet.

pjm
07-05-2010, 08:16 PM
I was going to post a long winded reply here but most of the point have been covered already. I will say this though: I think placing a hockey team in Phoenix is like opening a steakhouse in India. Sure, it may pay off down the line, but the initial investments and losses that you must sustain are unreasonable when the alternative is relocation into another, more viable market.

I understand the need for the expansion of the NHL into US markets, especially development at a grassroots level. I just think there are much better options than Phoenix.

phaneuf6
07-05-2010, 08:27 PM
But isn't that the point you made to me early in the thread .............. the difference between the NHL and say a grocery store built for the future ?

Its a generalization .......... you can't flip it the other way without contradicting yourself.


Sorry I don't follow..

My main point is, it's been 14 years since the Coyotes moved to Phoenix and it just isn't working. The interest obviously isn't there right now and it's not healthy at all for the league, financially, for the team to be there. If the plan was to get there before it was too late, well, that's kind of passed us by at this point I would think. 14 years is a long time for a professional sports team to be around, and if the people of Phoenix aren't interested by now, chances are it's not going to turn around next year.

Dubz
07-05-2010, 08:39 PM
What time are the episodes airing?

bearcats
07-05-2010, 08:44 PM
What time are the episodes airing?

not sure, I checked the tsn website and could not find it...also dont find it on my tv menu...maybe its next week....????

Dubz
07-05-2010, 08:51 PM
not sure, I checked the tsn website and could not find it...also dont find it on my tv menu...maybe its next week....????

The first post said it starts on the 5th


The broadcast schedule for Why Not Canada? on SportsCentre and TSN.ca:

- Monday, July 5 – Part 1: Introduction to Why Not Canada?
- Tuesday, July 6 – Part 2: Winnipeg
- Wednesday, July 7 – Part 3: Hamilton
- Thursday, July 8 – Part 4: Greater Toronto Area
- Friday, July 9 – Part 5: Quebec City
- Saturday, July 10 – Part 6: Conclusions

alias
07-05-2010, 08:58 PM
I do understand the corporate side of things...the corporate support is there in Manitoba and I might add Canada's thompson family whom has the richest man in Canada...

Corporate support in Quebec city I am not sure of....

Corporate support for a second team in souther ontario, no worries there...

saskatchewan and the east coast I put in my first post just to see if I would get a rise out of some posters and I did...

In any case Bettman would rather see a franchise struggle in a place like phx than thrive in a place like manitoba...

anyone realize that manitoba (along with Sask) has has the best economy in Canada for the past 3-6 years or thereabouts?

Winnipeg/Manitoba can and should have one of the failing us franchises...

Winnipeg could face the same economic problem in a decade as Phoenix is right now. The reason Phoenix was chosen was because it was the strongest & fastest growing economy in the US. The housing market boom centered around Phoenix. The problem is people think things will always continue to go the way it is currently going. And if Phoenix couldn't support a team in a great economy, it certainly can't support a team in a poor economy. Winnipeg won't always have the best economy in Canada. The question is when the economy is in the shitter can they still support a team? IMO they could, as could Quebec City & SoOn but it's an unknown variable.


Alias - The problem in Phoenix has been stable ownership and a lack of ability to promote the sport of hockey so that it grows.

so how much more time and money do you throw into it to get it to thrive? It's something that is no guarantee and you have no proven examples of hockey working in a market like that so nothing says it could work.


I am not sure if the plan the Hurricanes used would work in Phoenix but I would say it "probably" would be a good blue print to use as a starting point.

Maybe, but if you had a hockey team and had to choose between Carolina & Phoenix you would choose Carolina everytime. Geographically Carolina isn't that far from the Atlantic division teams and likely already has a small population of hockey fans, while Phoenix is in the middle of the desert, and has no idea what hockey is.


We will never be privy to the information the league has researched in regards to Phoenix but for some unknown reason the league not just Bettman thinks it will work .........why on earth would they be so determined to stay in Phoenix unless they had information at their disposal that says it will work. The owners are in it for the money - don't you think if putting a franchise(s) back in Canada would reap them a wind fall of profits they would do it in a heart beat.

They wanted to. When Balsillie was trying to get Nashville and move them to Hamilton the owners all voted in favour of it. They loved the idea of moving a team that wasn't making money to a market that would make money, however the owner wouldn't sell it to him. When he tried to buy Phoenix he tried to go in the back door and pissed a lot of people off so they voted no to him as an owner, not no to the location.

alias
07-05-2010, 09:01 PM
What time are the episodes airing?


not sure, I checked the tsn website and could not find it...also dont find it on my tv menu...maybe its next week....????


The first post said it starts on the 5th

Read this part a little closer:

The broadcast schedule for Why Not Canada? on SportsCentre and TSN.ca:

:);):p

It's a feature during SportCentre, not a half hour program. BUt you can catch it on tsn.ca

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326630

http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip321788#clip321788


But this is the best spot to go to follow this story:

http://www.tsn.ca/whynotcanada/

madsci
07-05-2010, 09:43 PM
It's also a feature set of articles in the Globe and Mail - first one was today (intro and overview).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/why-not-canada/article1628425/

Tomorrow's article (Why not Winnipeg?) is up now.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/why-not-winnipeg/article1629344/

The article is pretty wishy-washy. No real analysis, just people saying "yeah, I think it could work" or "there could be challenges".

edit: Sorry, that was the accompanying article. The numbers/analysis is here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/winnipeg/article1629346/

Very rough summary (there's tons more detail at the link):

Market Attractiveness: C+
Ownership and Viability: B
Final Grade: B

According to their analyst:


What Norm O’Reilly says: “With the right owner, and the right management team, and the right overall philosophy, you could make it work. You’d have to accept probably not having a high-paid team on the ice. You’re going to fill 80 to 90 per cent of your building with an average team so your risks are mitigated a bit. With a few factors in play, with the current economic situation, it could work. Long term? That’s a question.”

alias
07-05-2010, 09:58 PM
winnipeg could face the same economic problem in a decade as phoenix is right now.....winnipeg won't always have the best economy in canada. The question is when the economy is in the shitter can they still support a team? Imo they could, as could quebec city & soon but it's an unknown variable.



according to their analyst:

with a few factors in play, with the current economic situation, it could work. Long term? That’s a question.”

:d

bearcats
07-05-2010, 11:11 PM
I have little doubt that winnipeg will be able to support a team in a shitty economy...the reason I say this is cost of living....the cost of living is sooooo cheap in Winnipeg compared to some other markets in canada like calgary, ottawa mtrl, toronto and vancouver....its closest comparison would be edmonton it is still more costly...

I bought my first house in wpg for 100,000 it was a three bedroom two storey home with a den and a double detached garage...in edmonton that house would have been 120,000-180,000, in calgary/mtrl/ottawa for 220,000-300,000 and in tor/van 500,000 plus

now my wages when I lived in Wpg were on par with neglagable increases with what I was making when I lived in Ottawa and Vancouver while working for the federal government....you have to look at the disposable income that is available to those that choose to live in Wpg and its huge...makes me wonder if I should have stayed there?LOL:lol::cool::)

Manitoba is also home to some of the wealthiest canadians and stienbach which has the most millionirs per capata in canada, having said that scottsdale arizona also has a huge proportion of millionaires per capata...

in any case the dirt cheap cost of living along with a very good stable economy and a culture of hockey makes wpg a better market now and going forward......

madsci
07-06-2010, 08:35 AM
Another problem faced by the Coyotes isn't talked about much, and is pretty pedestrian, but it's tough to sell tickets to 41 home games a year when getting to and from the arena sucks. The situation in Phoenix is similar to the problem in Ottawa, where I moved last year.

After living in Montreal, where Habs tickets are hard to come by, I was excited about seeing lots of games in Ottawa (they only sold out 12 games last year). I'm a big hockey fan, but by the end of the year, I was turning down free tickets to games because of the hassle of actually going to a game. Here's how it goes:

- leave straight from work to get to the arena, which is 25 minutes away without traffic but a nightmare at rush hour when the Sens are playing.
- sit in traffic for 40 minutes with the commuters and 20,000 hockey fans all taking the same single highway
- pay for parking
- go to the arena bar/resto for dinner. There's no time to eat at home or downtown, and there are no restaurants within walking distance of the arena. Because of this you wait for a seat (if you can get one) and pay $$ for food.
- decide which of the four of us is the designated driver and won't be drinking beer with buddies for the night
- pay $10/beer during game
- watch the game
- when game ends, either sit in parking lot traffic for 30 minutes while 20,000 fans wait to use the two exits back onto the highway or head to arena bar to wait it out
- if you and your three buddies decided it's no fun to have one guy be DD, go out and pay $50 for a cab back to town
- drive 30 mins back to Ottawa, let buzz and excitement wear off, and decided not to bother going out for a post-game beer so go home instead.

In the end, even with free tickets, I drop at least $100 at a game and instead of a good night out with buddies, it's a logistical challenge. Because of this, the people I know with season's tickets with the Sens often have a hard time finding people to use them - for free!

So this year, I'm getting season's tickets to the 67's - the OHL team - which plays within walking distance of downtown (and my house).

There may be a lot of problems with the Coyotes, but there's also the fact that the NBA Suns play downtown and the Coyotes don't. Going to a Sens game (and presumably a 'yotes game) is just about the game, not about a fun night out. And if the Sens can't sell out games despite being in hockey-mad Ottawa, how are the Coyotes supposed to do it?

Hamsterkill
07-06-2010, 09:33 AM
I really couldn't say if it's all that much harder getting to Glendale than it would be to downtown Phoenix. The new Metro system they're building in Phoenix will no doubt make that easier once it's built, though.

alias
07-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Hamilton:



For Blair Halchuk and Nathan Kellar, Gator Ted's Sports Bar in Burlington, Ontario was as close as they got to this year's Stanley Cup playoffs.
But three years ago, they thought they might actually get to cheer for a team of their own in nearby Hamilton. They put down $500 apiece towards season tickets. "They were selling tickets, I mean it's coming right?" said Kellar. "You don't sell tickets if you're not going to bring a team."
The man selling the tickets was billionaire Jim Balsillie, who collected 12,000 down payments as part of his effort to buy the Nashville Predators and make them Canada's seventh NHL team. It turned out to be a down payment on wishful thinking. The NHL balked at Balsillie's plan to move the team to Hamilton.
The money was refunded.
The party fizzled.
It wasn't supposed to be this way when the city built Copps Coliseum in 1985 and played host to the 1987 Canada Cup - and one of Canada's greatest ever hockey moments .
But Hamilton's hopes were soon dashed when it lost out to Tampa Bay and Ottawa for expansion franchises in 1990.
And there have been other flirtations with NHL hockey, including last spring with the Phoenix Coyotes. But the NHL blocked that in bankruptcy.
It seems like there's some perceived slight by the NHL," says Halchuk. "No, not Hamilton at all costs…they say for whatever reason no, even though everyone puts down tickets. And then you see these other arenas half-full and you think ‘Why not Hamilton?'"
The NHL may not want Hamilton, but Hamilton still wants the NHL. So many false hopes and dashed dreams might have convinced other cities to simply give up. But this one keeps coming back for more - because all the rejection in the world can't shake the belief that the city would be a grand addition.
We have the facility, we have the location, we have the market," said Hamilton city councilor Terry Whitehead. "It would be silly for us to turn our backs at this stage of the game."
Everyone that TSN spoke to believes the market is more than strong enough - and here's a big part of why.
Hamilton's metropolitan area is just 728,000, but with a few surrounding cities that market boosts to over 2 million people.
"When you look at who's buying corporate boxes, who's putting their money down to buy seasons tickets, you look at the geographic map, they are coming from all over Southern Ontario," said Whitehead.
"It's not like they are living alone in the middle of nowhere," added Mario Lefebvre, Director of the Centre for Municipal Studies at the Conference Board of Canada. "The cities around the city of Hamilton would jump into the same bandwagon. It's a very decent market for the NHL."
So decent in fact, that the NHL entered in court that a Hamilton team would be the league's fifth-most valuable franchise. And yet today, the league couldn't be less interested.
"The notion that, 'Well, there's an old building there…let's go.' I don't think that's the way you put your franchises on the ground," said NHL commissioner Gary Bettman.
That old building, Bettman says, would require more than $200 million in refurbishments. Its proponents, however, say it's much less than that.
"To meet the business standards - meaning corporate boxes, lighting and all the necessary rooms to generate the wealth to sustain a hockey team in the city of Hamilton, that cost came in at around $100 million," countered Whitehead.
Even if the building is accepted, some question the assumption that Hamilton is the right location for a team.

"Is that the right place to have a second team in Southern Ontario?" said Bettman. "Maybe - based on population movement, transportaton issues, roads, but maybe that's not the right place anymore to put an arena. Maybe it belongs in London, maybe it belongs in Waterloo."
Of course, there's another possible location just down the road from Hamilton. But there's already a team there, the richest and most powerful one in the entire NHL. That story will be told in Part 4 on Thursday.
PROFESSOR O'REILLY'S SCORECARD for HAMILTON
Market Attractiveness
Economy: B
Demographics: B
Market Size: A+
Corporate Presence: B+
Overall Score for Market Attractiveness: A-
Franchise Viability
Arena and Location: C
Competition and Barriers to Entry: D-
Potential Owner (Jim Balsillie): A
Final Grade: D+
What Norm O'Reilly says: "If you look at the market, it's very strong, extremely supportive of hockey, no doubting it at all. There's a facility there that we know needs some renovations. The challenge becomes that you have two other franchises in the market. You have Buffalo and the Leafs. So it becomes a political thing."

alias
07-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Toronto:



It's six years and counting since they made the post-season, but in a hockey-mad country, no team has more demand or makes more money than the Toronto Maple Leafs.
"The amount of corporate sponsorship that the Leafs are able to achieve, without revealing the numbers - I would estimate you'd see thems probably being close to equaling all the teams across the country in total," said Mark Harrison, President of TrojanOne sports marketing.
NHL fervor can be found in any of Canada six NHL cities. What makes Toronto different is sheer size.
The Leafs are the richest NHL team there is. They charge the highest prices, rake in the most money and produce the biggest profits. According to Forbes magazine, the club pulled in $79 million US for the 2008-09 season.
That's what happens when you play in a Canadian market of 5.7 million people. A market that lines up to pay about $100 for an average ticket.
"It represents about 50 per cent of the Ontario economy," explained Mario Lefebvre, Director of the Centre for Municipal Studies at the Conference Board of Canada. "That represents 15 per cent of the Canadian economy."

To put Toronto's economic might into perspective, consider the fact that it has almost double the number of head offices that Montreal does.
More than three times Calgary's total.
And roughly nine times that of Ottawa.
So how much unsatisfied demand in there for NHL hockey in the greater Toronto area? We did some research.
"There's massive appetite for a second team in Toronto," said Global managing partner Don Mayo. "There's about 800,000 people in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) right now that have NHL hockey as a passion that haven't been able to attend a hockey game in the past two years."
Having the NHL's largest Canadian market all to themselves has been very good for the Leafs. But would they be hurt if another team set up shop nearby? The fact is, some of the richest franchises around share markets with other teams in the same sport. The New York Yankees, New York Rangers, Los Angeles Lakers and Chicago Cubs are all prime examples - and none seem to have suffered one bit.
"I would expect that Toronto's got enough capacity for at least two teams, maybe two-and-a-half," said Harrison.
"They could put a second NHL team in, possibly even a third NHL team in with the demand in the GTA area," added Mayo.
And the National Hockey League's assessment?
"I have no idea," said NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. "It's not anything we've looked at."
Seeing two very opposite perspectives on this subject should not come as much of a surprise.
"There's a lot of research around two franchises, one league, same city, said sports business expert Norm O'Reilly. "And there's two camps. Camp A says its great, there's nothing better than to have a rival down the street. It grows for both. There's another camp that says the opposite. Being a monopoly in your environment is the way to be."

Though the Maple Leafs turned down a request to discuss this issue on camera, their own words (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=27087) suggest they believe they can veto another NHL team in their territory.
In November of 2006, the team sent a letter to the NHL expressly stating their belief they could veto any team coming into anywhere within 80 kilometres of downtown Toronto - a position actually opposed by the NHL.
"We don't believe they have any rights in that regard," said Bettman. "We were very clear in our court filings to that affect. Whether or not a franchise moves to another location is a league decision."
So does the veto exist or not? It's a murky legal question and one without a clear answer.
"I don't think the Leafs are admitting anti-competitive behavior simply by asserting they may have a veto right," explained Kevin Wright, a competition lawyer for Davis LLP. "Whether the exercise of a veto is anti-competitive will depend on a number of factors in a given case. So if you're sitting in the Leafs' shoes, you would want to assert your rights - to protect your interests."
And those interests go well beyond hockey. Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment owns the NBA's Toronto Raptors, Major League Soccer's Toronto FC and runs an entertainment business out of the Air Canada Centre. Research shows another NHL team would take a significant bite out of all that.
"The Maple Leafs would be fine," said Mayo. "The biggest impact would be on other sports teams such as the Raptors, FC or the Blue Jays. Because there's only so much money in a marketplace, it would also impact cultural and other events. People don't have unlimited funds."
One way around the Leafs' perceived right to protect their territory - in theory - is with money. But paying off the Leafs, paying an expansion or relocation fee and then building an arena would add up to a very expensive proposition.
"You're talking about a pretty big number," said O'Reilly. "It's probably pushing a billion dollars if I forecast it in my mind. That's what it's going to cost."
Professor Norm O'Reilly's Scorecard for Toronto
Market Attractiveness
Economy: A-
Demographics: B+
Market Size: A+
Corporate Presence: A+
Overall Score for Market Attractiveness: A+
Franchise Viability
Arena and Location: F
Competition and Barriers to Entry: F
Potential Owner: ?
Final Grade: D-

alias
07-11-2010, 10:46 AM
Quebec City with the highest overall score:



Marian Stastny can still make the shots – on the links, that is. At 57, Stastny runs a hotel and golf resort just upriver from Quebec City. Three decades ago, the name Stastny meant a completely different sport around these parts.
"Beautiful moments," says Stastny with a smile. "And beautiful relationships between the hockey players and the supporters."
In the early 1980s, Marian, Peter and Anton Stastny formed a dynamic brother trio with the Quebec Nordiques. And each spring, their playoff battles featured epic showdowns against Montreal in the annual Battle of Quebec.
"It was really a fight for every square centimetre of the ice," said Stastny. "And we wanted to show that we could play, that we are able to win as well. So we did our best and it was really something special for everyone."
Those were heady days, when the Nordiques dared to challenge Montreal for the hearts of hockey-mad Quebecers.
Then reality kicked in.
Rising player salaries and a weak Canadian dollar, combined with being the smallest market in the NHL, were too much for the Nordiques to overcome. And like the Winnipeg Jets, they played in an aging building without the prospect of a new home. In 1995, the team was sold and moved to Denver to become the Colorado Avalanche.
"For me it was my whole life," said former Nordiques president and CEO Marcel Aubut. "But it was like pulling my heart out of my body."
Quebec is one of North America's truly beautiful cities. It's European in look and feel. It's rich in history, culture and a love of hockey.
To lure the NHL back, the city is aiming for a new publicly-funded $40 million dollar arena, supported by the provincial government and championed by Mayor Regis Labeaume (See this website for more on the effort to get a new arena, and a team in Quebec (http://www.jaimaplace.com/en/page/new-spectator-sports-complex-quebec-city)).
"The big challenge for me is the building - to get the building decision as soon as possible," he told TSN. "I don't want to miss the opportunity to get a team. I said I would commit $50 million and I asked both levels of government to pay the rest. And I told them, let's make a deal."
And there's no questioning what such a building would mean to the city – a crown jewel of sport that would be recognized throughout the province.
"We want it to be one of the most important buildings in the city of Quebec," said François Moreau, whose company ABCP Architecture is in charge of the project. "A symbol for the city. So what we have designed is to have something that reflects the attractiveness of the city of Quebec. It's going to be the tallest structure being built out of wood in North America."
The financing of a new arena could be hooked to a bid for the 2022 Winter Olympic Games. If it's approved, the city would then use it to lure an NHL team from one of league's struggling American markets. Under that scenario, Quebec City might have teams lined up at its door.
"I've been straight forward with Commissioner Bettman," said Labeaume. "I told him this is my strategy and this is the journey. I'm trying to go there by doing that and that. And I'm going to keep him posted. He knows exactly where I'm going."
And where a building is concerned, the NHL appears to be on the same page.
"I've spoken to the mayor, I've spoken to the Premier," said Bettman. "They seem to be hopeful to confident that there will be a new arena perhaps in conjunction with an Olympic bid."
But the non-profit organization behind the arena is already making headway on selling corporate suites for a building and a team that do not yet exist.
"We started in March of 2009 and we've sold 70 - almost finished," said Moreau. "And a waiting list of 10 companies, so it's fantastic - without a team, only with the expectation of having a team someday."
Quebec City used to be a government town, but today it's more about private business.
"Right now, Quebec City's level of income per capita has now surpassed Montreal," said Mario Lefebvre, Director of the Centre for Municipal Studies at the Conference Board of Canada. "And Montreal has a team that does very well with people who have enough money to watch games."
Ownership is the final piece of the puzzle, which is what makes the interest of media giant Quebecor so critical. And CEO Pierre Karl Peladeau has already met with the NHL.
"The fact that he is in the broadcast business, you have more than a hockey team - you can build an entertainment business," explained Labeaume. "Like (now former Canadiens owner) George Gillett did in Montreal."
Aubut, who was a young and charismatic NHL executive in his own right, agrees.
"Pierre will be a dream owner," he said. "He's young, a good operator and has the synergy with everything he's got - television, newspapers, cable, that would be a perfect fit. That's the dream. The momentum is there. I'm saying as soon as the building is confirmed, everything is possible. And it could be fast."
And there seems to be little objection from Bettman, who saw the Nordiques move out just two years after taking the job as league commissioner.
"I believe a team can be well supported in that market," he said.
And to a former Nordique who's seen it all in Quebec as Marian Stastny has, it all makes sense.
"Here in Quebec City, you have a real love for the game," he said. "They are real supporters, people that understand the hockey. They support the hockey, they follow the hockey, so it could only be a positive thing for the NHL."
Professor Norm O'Reilly's scorecard for Quebec City
Market Attractiveness
Economy: B-
Demographics: C
Market Size: C
Corporate presence: C+
Overall Score for Market Attractiveness: C+
Franchise Viability
Arena and Location: A+
Competition and Barriers to Entry: A+
Potential Owner (Quebecor, CEO Pierre Karl Peladeau): A
Final Grade: B+
What Norm O'Reilly says: "A team in Quebec City can work. There are a number of challenges to overcome. If you make the assumption that a public stadium is built, that's to the nines, that makes it easier. Then you'd need an ownership group willing to put money in and lose a bit, take a risk in the long term. You'd need a savvy management team that can fit the team into a market that is still attached to the Canadiens."

alias
07-11-2010, 10:47 AM
Conclusion:



The 2010 Olympic Winter Games in Vancouver.
The country was on a hockey high and Sidney Crosby (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=sidney+crosby)'s gold medal goal was proof to the world that hockey is Canada's game. Yet of the 30 teams in the National Hockey League, only a half-dozen can call Canada home.
In fact, there are two fewer Canadian teams than there were 14 years ago.
In the mid-1990s, when the Jets left Winnipeg and the Nordiques said adieu to Quebec City, the landscape was very different. There was a sinking Canadian dollar, skyrocketing salaries, and aging arenas.
And the fact that no one who wanted to own those teams did them in.
That's where the story of the NHL in Canada has changed the most.
A decade ago, when the Montreal Canadiens were up for sale, there was one bidder. Last spring, there were at least a half-dozen.
And now with Jim Balsillie for Hamilton, Mark Chipman and David Thomson for Winnipeg and Quebecor's Pierre Karl Peladeau for Quebec City, well-heeled investors are standing by with their cheque books ready.
While Balsillie is not in the NHL's good books, the league has no such qualms with potential owners in Winnipeg and Quebec.
“It's quite possible that with the right ownership and the right arena arrangement, that we could have additonal teams in Canada,” said NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. “What we are looking at now is interest from substantial people who would like to own a franchise.”
Part of what's opened up this door is the rise in the Canadian dollar, which continues with flirt with parity to the U.S. greenback. And projections are it will stay that way.
“I don't see any attack on our dollar anytime over the next five years,” explained Mario Lefebvre, Director of the Centre for Municipal Studies at the Conference Board of Canada. “I think the dollar should not be part of the equation, at last. That is something that should not stop any team in Canada from being successful.”
But if the dollar did dive, teams in smaller Canadian markets would have better protection thanks to the league's revenue sharing system.
And there's the salary cap.
“You are protected against the higher spending teams, which you would have seen previously, taking some of your best players,” explained sports business expert Norm O'Reilly. “You're able to keep a team.”
So while running an NHL team remains an expensive proposition, runaway costs are a thing of the past.
For years, Canadian hockey fans have complained that the NHL didn't care about Canada, a thought process that Chipman doesn't buy into.
“I think that is patently false,” he flatly said. “I guess I can understand to a certain extent how that conclusion's been drawn by those who opine on the subject. But I think if anybody has had the experience that we've had in working with the league like we have, they'd come with the exact opposite conclusion.”
“The future of the league is to go back to where there is a big fan base,” added former Quebec Nordiques CEO Marcel Aubut. “And where is that? It's right in Canada.”
And the league's stance?
“You could look at a market that might be three million or four million people and it might have an NFL team, an NBA team, a baseball team and a hockey team,” explained Bettman. “I'm not sure just because the market is bigger, that it would be better than a smaller market that had no professional sports teams and the hockey team would be the only team in town.”
Being buried behind other major league teams describes the situations in Pheonix and Atlanta - two franchises at the bottom of the NHL revenue scale. And neither one is tied to a lease, making them the two most likely candidates for relocation.
“You cannot blame the commissioner of the NHL - he'll try anything to keep the teams where they are,” said Aubut. “But at one point if it can't work anymore, I think they are going to make a move. For the best of the industry, for the players, and they'll look to where the fan bases are big and strong.”
So if there are teams that could be in play, where would they go?
The NHL decides where it wants to put teams and where it doesn't. It's clear that while the league is open to going back to Winnipeg and Quebec City, it seems to have no interest in Hamilton or putting a second team in Toronto.
“Could Southern Ontario support another team? Probably,”said Bettman. “It's nothing we've studied. My own focus has been to look at the places where perhaps we could go back to the fans who once supported us before going to some place new.”

Doctego
07-22-2010, 04:38 PM
Another guy that wants Winnipeg to get a team again:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Lundar-resident-faces-charges-over-911-calls-98975869.html


"If you’re coming to get me, can you bring me some smokes," was his reply.

two24four
01-05-2011, 02:38 AM
Winnipeg hosted the under 17's this past week, tonight was the gold medal game, team Ontario vs team USA, 12,000 people where at this game tonight, again this was anunder 17 game.

For the record team Ontario won 5-3 :D

WIS
01-05-2011, 02:48 AM
Winnipeg hosted the under 17's this past week, tonight was the gold medal game, team Ontario vs team USA, 12,000 people where at this game tonight, again this was anunder 17 game.

For the record team Ontario won 5-3 :D
Caught a bit of it. Good game.

canuckthug
01-05-2011, 03:35 AM
Another guy that wants Winnipeg to get a team again:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Lundar-resident-faces-charges-over-911-calls-98975869.html

Funny story. What a great read! I just drove through Lundar 2 days ago.. Highway 6 --- the road to nowhere (if headed North)


The potential return of the NHL has been a hot topic in recent years, with many believing it’s a matter of when, not if, Winnipeg gets a team back. And while the subject usually triggers passionate debate, this is believed to be the first time it has ever prompted police action..

I thought for sure the City of Winnipeg would announce the return of the Jets this Holiday season. Phoenix had a major deadline to reach before Christmas time and apparently the league signed with them. The NHL reached a deal with PHX, even when owners declared the Coyote franchise would continue to fail for at least 2 more seasons. Thats ludicrous. The Canadian dollar is higher than the US right now but back when WPG left the CDN dollar was hovering in the high 60s i believe. If its all about the Buck, we got the Buck! Good news is that the Thrashers are a potential market for relocation. Their mascot cannot save the team although it was a valiant effort.

I also heard that if the Jets do come back, they would npt be allowed to be called the Jets.. What kind of sick twisted world do we live in ? ... Any truth to that?? makes no sense to me.


Winnipeg hosted the under 17's this past week, tonight was the gold medal game, team Ontario vs team USA, 12,000 people where at this game tonight, again this was anunder 17 game.

For the record team Ontario won 5-3 :D

http://www.eastmanminorhockey.ca/Links_files/image001.jpg

Hockey Manitoba!! I have that logo on my ref jersey. Its yellow. For some reason, that needed to be posted! I missed the tourney but i heard about it.. Glad it was successful. If Johnathon Toews was 16, what team would he play for? I see some team names here : http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php?ci_id=74637&la_id=1

Hamsterkill
01-05-2011, 07:34 AM
I thought for sure the City of Winnipeg would announce the return of the Jets this Holiday season. Phoenix had a major deadline to reach before Christmas time and apparently the league signed with them. The NHL reached a deal with PHX, even when owners declared the Coyote franchise would continue to fail for at least 2 more seasons. Thats ludicrous. The Canadian dollar is higher than the US right now but back when WPG left the CDN dollar was hovering in the high 60s i believe. If its all about the Buck, we got the Buck! Good news is that the Thrashers are a potential market for relocation. Their mascot cannot save the team although it was a valiant effort.

Your information is old. The Canadian dollar is now equal with the USD (the USD is actually 2 ten-thousandths higher). Doesn't invalidate your point that conditions are different, but the fact is relocation is a last resort -- it was for the NHL back when Winnipeg moved too.

Honestly, if any team is moving in the next few years, I'd have to guess it's the Isles. They seem determined to stare down Long Island into giving them a new arena and Long Island is as stubborn as ever while their fanbase dwindles to incredibly low levels. (sorry Hoo Hoo Howie, if you ever come into this board)

Doctego
01-05-2011, 08:20 AM
Your information is old. The Canadian dollar is now equal with the USD (the USD is actually 2 ten-thousandths higher). Doesn't invalidate your point that conditions are different, but the fact is relocation is a last resort -- it was for the NHL back when Winnipeg moved too.

Honestly, if any team is moving in the next few years, I'd have to guess it's the Isles. They seem determined to stare down Long Island into giving them a new arena and Long Island is as stubborn as ever while their fanbase dwindles to incredibly low levels. (sorry Hoo Hoo Howie, if you ever come into this board)

What has happened on Long Island is a shame. They are a franchise with a great past that no one seems to remember any more. They have the worst arena (by far) with the worst lease (by far). I truly believe that Wang came into this with good intentions. He was a local guy that wanted to do right by the fans. Unfortunately, his vision (Lighthouse Project) was unrealistic, especially in this economy.

This is really a unique situation. I have no doubt that the area would support the team under the right conditions, even with so many other teams in the "area". They are in the middle of a vicious cycle that I am 100% confident that a new arena would fix. A new arena would excite the fans and ownership/management to go back to doing everything that they can to build a winner. As fucked up as Wang has been, I can't blame him for tiring of throwing $20M/year of his own money into the team.

canuckthug
01-05-2011, 11:10 AM
Your information is old. The Canadian dollar is now equal with the USD (the USD is actually 2 ten-thousandths higher). Doesn't invalidate your point that conditions are different, but the fact is relocation is a last resort -- it was for the NHL back when Winnipeg moved too.

Honestly, if any team is moving in the next few years, I'd have to guess it's the Isles. They seem determined to stare down Long Island into giving them a new arena and Long Island is as stubborn as ever while their fanbase dwindles to incredibly low levels. (sorry Hoo Hoo Howie, if you ever come into this board)

The information might be old today but technically even your information is old because things change all the time (money never sleeps). Im sure the currency moved a few micro points since you posted., im almost certain in the last 7-10 days i read a yahoo headline stating that the CDN dollar was above parity with the US dollar. Last time i checked was Monday and i thought it was still higher but it was probably the other way around. Bottom line its pretty much break-even and Canada has alot of natural resources (oil, dams/hyrdoelectric energy, gold, diamond, nickel, copper, you name it... and Canada has the most amount of fresh water anywhere in the world). I just dont see the Canadian dollar dipping below . 90 anytime soon and having forseeable economic stability is a major point when speaking business... So the question is, can a new Canadian market (a hockey team) compete in todays NHL? The Answer: You cant put a team anywhere but certain locations would definitely make more money than some current failing US teams.


What has happened on Long Island is a shame. They are a franchise with a great past that no one seems to remember any more. They have the worst arena (by far) with the worst lease (by far). I truly believe that Wang came into this with good intentions. He was a local guy that wanted to do right by the fans. Unfortunately, his vision (Lighthouse Project) was unrealistic, especially in this economy.

This is really a unique situation. I have no doubt that the area would support the team under the right conditions, even with so many other teams in the "area". They are in the middle of a vicious cycle that I am 100% confident that a new arena would fix. A new arena would excite the fans and ownership/management to go back to doing everything that they can to build a winner. As fucked up as Wang has been, I can't blame him for tiring of throwing $20M/year of his own money into the team.

Damn, your giving Wang some major slack. Not me...Once Wang hired (his good friend) Garth freaking Snow i knew exactly what Wang was smoking... First of all, you dont hire your friends (its bad business) and secondly, Garth freaking Snow couldnt stop pucks and was a horrible goalie in general...He should have disappeared into the abyss that was his career.... how the fuck does he become a GM of an NHL team. The Isles already had a treacherous time with Milbury at the helm and hiring Garth Snow was IMO an even bigger fail. Rick Dipietro for 15 years was outrageous... still is.

I also agree, that Long Island has a rich history. How many NHL teams had a dynasty?? Them winning 4 in a row should have sealed their legacy for life but it is sad that they might be lost.. (bad people in the driver seat = poor team on the ice) its not the fans fault or the poor arena IMO, its the product (the team) that drove the fans away..

Doctego
01-05-2011, 11:49 AM
Damn, your giving Wang some major slack. Not me...Once Wang hired (his good friend) Garth freaking Snow i knew exactly what Wang was smoking... First of all, you dont hire your friends (its bad business) and secondly, Garth freaking Snow couldnt stop pucks and was a horrible goalie in general...He should have disappeared into the abyss that was his career.... how the fuck does he become a GM of an NHL team. The Isles already had a treacherous time with Milbury at the helm and hiring Garth Snow was IMO an even bigger fail. Rick Dipietro for 15 years was outrageous... still is.I fail to see how Snow's playing career is an indication of qualification for a GM job. By no means am I saying that Snow is a good GM but I think that it's impossible to judge him based on him having no budget whatsoever. I have no knowledge of Wang and Snow being friends in the past so I can't comment on that.

Wang became an owner in 2000 and sole/majority owner in 2004 and his hands have been tied ever since. He wanted to do the right thing but couldn't. As for the DiPietro deal, I stood by it then and, had he stayed healthy, I think that it was a good deal. Unfortunately, he couldn't stay healthy. If he did, paying a quality goalie $4.5M/year is a nice number. Hindsight is always 20/20.

We could go on and on about the chicken or the egg here. The arena sucks and the product sucks. Before you go solely blaming the management and the product, I recommend that you take a tour of their arena and tell me whether you would want to go there regularly.

canuckthug
01-05-2011, 12:36 PM
I fail to see how Snow's playing career is an indication of qualification for a GM job. By no means am I saying that Snow is a good GM but I think that it's impossible to judge him based on him having no budget whatsoever. I have no knowledge of Wang and Snow being friends in the past so I can't comment on that.

Wang became an owner in 2000 and sole/majority owner in 2004 and his hands have been tied ever since. He wanted to do the right thing but couldn't. As for the DiPietro deal, I stood by it then and, had he stayed healthy, I think that it was a good deal. Unfortunately, he couldn't stay healthy. If he did, paying a quality goalie $4.5M/year is a nice number. Hindsight is always 20/20.

We could go on and on about the chicken or the egg here. The arena sucks and the product sucks. Before you go solely blaming the management and the product, I recommend that you take a tour of their arena and tell me whether you would want to go there regularly.

Im glad you brought that up. Lets see, Garth Snow as far as i know has never ever won ANYTHING during his NHL days. No cups, no personal accolades, no nothing and if he was fortunate to win a ring and get his name on the mug then he surely did it as a backup. I also think he has barely any playoff experience further indicating how little he knows about winning. Im also certain that Snow was shopped around the league,probably played for at least 6 different clubs.. Hes no good. The point is Garth Snow sucks... and the even more convincing point from a strictly managerial point of view is: He sucks at winning. Your supposed to hire people who know, understand, and have experience in dealing with the competitive edge of victory. This is why Mario Lemieux and Steve Yzerman are no brainers. Yzerman lead team Canada to Gold and is doing well in TBAy, Lemieux did his thing (literally saving that whole franchise from bankrupty) and won a cup as owner. Throw Garth Snow in that same GM category and it doesnt add up. Wang wasnt smoking the Chronic, he was smoking straight Crack. If the Isles were serious about winning, they would have hired anyone other than Snow. You dont have to stop pucks to run a team, I get what your saying... (JD in St. Louis is the exception, hes knows hockey) You can be fat, bald, smart and rich and still function as a decent GM... it has no bearing whether you actually played the game... But Garth Snow according to his life long resume has no business being a GM. Hes not a winner. Hes the opposite. Now if Snow has a Yale degree in management, then maybe he does have some credentials but i doubt that too.

... maybe this is more 20/20 but wasnt a guy named Mark Messier seeking employment as GM. Messier is currently paying his dues overseas managing the spengler cup team and he desperately wants to be a GM of an NHL team..Hes stated that in an interview i watched. Mario, Stevie Y, and Messier, that makes sense.. the pecking order of greatness is debatable... who is the better leader..? who understands winning more?? who understands the busniess.. You dont hire Garth god damn Snow when you could have hired Mark Messier.

nyrblue2
01-05-2011, 12:58 PM
The fact that you base your argument about Garth Snow on the fact that he was never a top NHL goalie and never "won" anything is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe the Red Wings should can Ken Holland and hire Garth Snow. After all, Snow's career looks HOF-caliber compared to Holland's 4 game NHL career...

canuckthug
01-05-2011, 01:40 PM
The fact that you base your argument about Garth Snow on the fact that he was never a top NHL goalie and never "won" anything is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe the Red Wings should can Ken Holland and hire Garth Snow. After all, Snow's career looks HOF-caliber compared to Holland's 4 game NHL career...
First of all, this is a what have you done for me lately business.. and what has Garth Snow done. Hes been running the team for what, 5-6-7 years? How many times has he helped the team get to the playoffs? How many times has his team finished dead fucking last by a mile? The Islanders are the LA Clippers of the NHL. Ken Holland has done nothing but win, win, win. Im trying to find justifiable reasons why the Isles suck and im looking at Garth Snows track record, both as player and GM... im not solely looking at his playing days as the only key underlying factor but surely his skills and winning abilities show some indication of character and potential. Why would the Isles hire a guy who could never win?? thats my point and i dont think its ridiculous.

Secondly, i assume Snow was hired because he happened to be a former NHL player. Its not a big deal for ex-Nhlers to get coaching jobs or management jobs with teams, its the norm, I just did a wikipedia search for Snow and i said this earlier :
But Garth Snow according to his life long resume has no business being a GM. Hes not a winner. Hes the opposite. Now if Snow has a Yale degree in management, then maybe he does have some credentials but i doubt that too.

From Wikipedia, i have learned:

On July 18, 2006, Snow officially confirmed his retirement and was named General Manager of the New York Islanders following Neil Smith's dismissal after 41 days on the job.[1] There was much criticism directed the Islanders way for firing a Stanley Cup-winning GM after such a short tenure in favor of Snow, who at the time of his hiring held no experience in management. Defenders of the organization pointed to Snow's Master’s Degree in Administration and Bachelor’s Degree in Business Administration from the University of Maine

So, Snow does have the required credentials... news to me. A masters degree in Business is definitely impressive and you cant take that away from him but what has he done for the team?? He can talk the talk in the board rooms but he cant walk the walk. He couldnt excel when it comes to playing and i think his GMing abilities are just as incompetent.

Hamsterkill
01-05-2011, 01:51 PM
To be fair, he's never really been given a chance to properly build a winning team. When you spend to the cap floor (while counting Yashin's buyout) every year, the expectation is clearly not to win...

habsfan1
01-05-2011, 02:04 PM
I wouldn't consider a MBA required credentials. A university degree is good but to get into that kind of position you should have some background experience in an organization, managing, before being moved into a top position.

chgorman
01-05-2011, 05:08 PM
Im glad you brought that up. Lets see, Garth Snow as far as i know has never ever won ANYTHING during his NHL days. No cups, no personal accolades, no nothing and if he was fortunate to win a ring and get his name on the mug then he surely did it as a backup. I also think he has barely any playoff experience further indicating how little he knows about winning. Im also certain that Snow was shopped around the league,probably played for at least 6 different clubs.. Hes no good. The point is Garth Snow sucks... and the even more convincing point from a strictly managerial point of view is: He sucks at winning. Your supposed to hire people who know, understand, and have experience in dealing with the competitive edge of victory. This is why Mario Lemieux and Steve Yzerman are no brainers. Yzerman lead team Canada to Gold and is doing well in TBAy, Lemieux did his thing (literally saving that whole franchise from bankrupty) and won a cup as owner. Throw Garth Snow in that same GM category and it doesnt add up. Wang wasnt smoking the Chronic, he was smoking straight Crack. If the Isles were serious about winning, they would have hired anyone other than Snow. You dont have to stop pucks to run a team, I get what your saying... (JD in St. Louis is the exception, hes knows hockey) You can be fat, bald, smart and rich and still function as a decent GM... it has no bearing whether you actually played the game... But Garth Snow according to his life long resume has no business being a GM. Hes not a winner. Hes the opposite. Now if Snow has a Yale degree in management, then maybe he does have some credentials but i doubt that too.

... maybe this is more 20/20 but wasnt a guy named Mark Messier seeking employment as GM. Messier is currently paying his dues overseas managing the spengler cup team and he desperately wants to be a GM of an NHL team..Hes stated that in an interview i watched. Mario, Stevie Y, and Messier, that makes sense.. the pecking order of greatness is debatable... who is the better leader..? who understands winning more?? who understands the busniess.. You dont hire Garth god damn Snow when you could have hired Mark Messier.

Dude, you're so far off-base that it's laughable. I lost count of how many ridiculous points you made in your post.

A) The Isles DID hire someone other than Snow. They hired Neil Smith, you know, the guy that assembled the '94 Cup winning Rangers team. He was there for just over a month, realized what a mess the organization was in and decided he'd rather not get involved in that quagmire and quit. Ever consider that maybe Snow is the only guy they could get to take the job? I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but it's certainly a possibility. I'm guessing no decent GM wanted anything to do with that joke of an organization... Neil Smith gave it a shot and it wasn't long before he realized it was a lost cause.

B) Pretty sure Messier was still playing when the Isles job opened up, and if he wasn't, he had just recently retired. Messier didn't express an interest in getting into a GM role until a few yrs after he retired (i.e. just recently). and after playing for the Rangers and Edmonton for the majority of his career, do you honestly think he'd be willing to tarnish his legacy and lower himself to the level of a joke of an organization like the Isles, who also happen to be the Rangers biggest rivals? It would be like a slap in the face to himself and Rangers fans.

C) Snow was part of the Flyers team that went to the Finals against the wings in '98. So he does have some experience 'winning' even though they didn't win the cup that year, as you have to win to be able to make it the SCF, but regardless, that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not he can be a competent GM. Based on your logic, Gretz should be the best Coach ever and should have got PHX to multiple cups already based on his playing career and being considered the best player of all time, but guess what... he was an epic fail in PHX, as evidenced by how well PHX did last season immediately after Gretz stepped down. don't forget, Brett Hull was a GM in Dallas for a short time too... how did that work out for them? Dallas was terrible while he was in charge. there's a long list of great players who turned out to be terrible GM's/coaches, and there's an equally long list of good to great GM's who were marginal players, or only played a few NHL games, or didn't play hockey professionally at all. Jim Devellano never played a single professional game of hockey, no NHL playing experience, no minors, no Junior, nothing, but he's in the HOF as a buillder for building the Isles dynasty and having a huge part in turning the Wings into a winning organization before Kenny Holland took over.

D) Mentioning Mario in this conversation is ridiculous. Mario never coached, was never GM, isn't really involved in the day-to-day operation of the team. He's was a player, he's now an owner. He put up the money to save the team in PIT and was obviously part of the negotiations to keep the team there, but he's had very little to do with building and/or running the team. I'm sure he is probably consulted every once in a while regarding the day-to-day stuff, roster moves, etc, but he doesn't cal the shots because he's not the GM, Ray shero is.

I could go on for while here, but I've got shit to do, so I'll leave it at that. Please don't take this post as me saying Garth Snow is a good GM, because that is not what I'm saying, all I'm saying is your reasoning for why you think Snow is a terrible GM is ridiculous. He's in a terrible situation with a terrible team, which has a lot more to do with it than him not being a winner during his playing career.

b_illin
01-05-2011, 05:14 PM
Your information is old. The Canadian dollar is now equal with the USD (the USD is actually 2 ten-thousandths higher). Doesn't invalidate your point that conditions are different, but the fact is relocation is a last resort -- it was for the NHL back when Winnipeg moved too.

Honestly, if any team is moving in the next few years, I'd have to guess it's the Isles. They seem determined to stare down Long Island into giving them a new arena and Long Island is as stubborn as ever while their fanbase dwindles to incredibly low levels. (sorry Hoo Hoo Howie, if you ever come into this board)

So is yours! http://beta.ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-dollar-slips-commodities-stocks-pull-back-20110105-051452-053.html :lol::lol:

Re: Garth Snow...the dude is Wang's yes man...that's why he got the job!

Hamsterkill
01-05-2011, 05:32 PM
So is yours! http://beta.ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-dollar-slips-commodities-stocks-pull-back-20110105-051452-053.html :lol::lol:

Re: Garth Snow...the dude is Wang's yes man...that's why he got the job!

I said they were equal. And they still are. :D

b_illin
01-05-2011, 05:34 PM
I said they were equal. And they still are. :D
Incorrect, we are a smidgeon more valuable!! :hic:


The Canadian dollar finished at C$0.9964 to the U.S. dollar, or $1.0036, up from Tuesday's close at C$0.9985 to the U.S. dollar, or $1.0015.

Doctego
01-05-2011, 06:20 PM
The fact that you base your argument about Garth Snow on the fact that he was never a top NHL goalie and never "won" anything is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe the Red Wings should can Ken Holland and hire Garth Snow. After all, Snow's career looks HOF-caliber compared to Holland's 4 game NHL career...

Agreed. That's a sign that I should cease this discussion with him.


Secondly, i assume Snow was hired because he happened to be a former NHL player.

I thought that he was hired because he was Wang's friend. Please make up your mind and choose an argument.

As for Wikipedia, you do know that anyone with a device that can access the web can update that page, right??

canuckthug
01-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Agreed. That's a sign that I should cease this discussion with him.



I thought that he was hired because he was Wang's friend. Please make up your mind and choose an argument.

As for Wikipedia, you do know that anyone with a device that can access the web can update that page, right??

I heard Snow was Wang's friends somewhere... whether it was on tv or in a newspaper i cannot say for sure. At the time Snow got hired, I 100% made the assumption he was hired because he was a former NHL'er. Make up my mind?? What was i supposed to think at that time. What other logical reasons could there be? Later, as the months and years pass, news travels and things unravel, i heard he was hired mainly because he was a close friend. And today, i learned another reason he may have been hired is he has a business major. i found this after a quick search:

He got the job mainly because he did a good job becoming Charles Wang's confidant when he was a goaltender here, and succeeded a Stanley Cup winning GM who was only given 40 days to run the team...

Here are some telling indepth credible posts/stories i found after a quick search:

This blog to me is poetry and very well written. To me, it is an honest adaptation from a long time Isle fan. Im not here to post fake wikipedia stuff and construct some sort of post to misconstrue the facts. Im searching for the facts... Dont tell me Wikipedia is one big giant false hack of information and leave it at that... If Garth Snow didnt get a business degree from Maine then disprove it and move on..,.
http://www.myspace.com/9255959/blog/146121641

These are 2 good stories about the Isles. More credible sources of information but ultimately still somebody's take on the Wang/Snow situation:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/columns/newsmakers/charles-wang.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/david-shoalts/sinking-isles-need-lifeline/article1834140/

Doctego
01-05-2011, 11:43 PM
Im not here to post fake wikipedia stuff and construct some sort of post to misconstrue the facts. Im searching for the facts... Dont tell me Wikipedia is one big giant false hack of information and leave it at that



I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just saying that anyone can post shit there so it's not a credible source. I'm also not saying that Snow is a good GM. What I am saying is that whatever he did in his playing career has no bearing on how he will do as a GM and that, to date, we have no idea whether he is a good GM because he hasn't had a real shot.

canuckthug
01-07-2011, 06:51 AM
Dude, you're so far off-base that it's laughable. I lost count of how many ridiculous points you made in your post.

A) The Isles DID hire someone other than Snow. They hired Neil Smith, you know, the guy that assembled the '94 Cup winning Rangers team. He was there for just over a month, realized what a mess the organization was in and decided he'd rather not get involved in that quagmire and quit. Ever consider that maybe Snow is the only guy they could get to take the job? I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but it's certainly a possibility. I'm guessing no decent GM wanted anything to do with that joke of an organization... Neil Smith gave it a shot and it wasn't long before he realized it was a lost cause.

A)I have conflicting views with pretty much every point you make.
To start off, it is well known and documented that Neil was fired.

UNIONDALE, N.Y. -- Neil Smith didn't last a summer, let alone a winter, as general manager of the New York Islanders.
Hired less than six weeks ago as part of a front office by committee, Smith failed to live up to owner Charles Wang's terms and was let go Tuesday before he had a chance to put his new team on the ice.
Smith was abruptly fired[/B] and replaced by New York goalie Garth Snow, who retired to take over the position.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2522886
(-i wish that video worked!)


B) Pretty sure Messier was still playing when the Isles job opened up, and if he wasn't, he had just recently retired. Messier didn't express an interest in getting into a GM role until a few yrs after he retired (i.e. just recently). and after playing for the Rangers and Edmonton for the majority of his career, do you honestly think he'd be willing to tarnish his legacy and lower himself to the level of a joke of an organization like the Isles, who also happen to be the Rangers biggest rivals? It would be like a slap in the face to himself and Rangers fans.

Messier played his last game in 03/04 just before the lockout year and made the official announcement in 05. Garth was hired in July of 06 so technically or theoretically speaking it could have happened... I get the NYR vs NYI rivalry but if Neil Smith (Messier's former boss), [you know the guy who helped the Rangers win the Stanley Cup] could get hired than perhaps Messier could have been lured on in some capacity. Messier to the Isles would have been a bigger slap in the face but Smith to the Isles did happen. From a management point of view, Isles fans would have euphoric optimism with a Messier signing IMO-----in comparison to the controversial and baffling Snow hiring. Speaking of snow, that leads to point C who you are trying to defend as a winner. Now thats laughable. The one playoff he went to the finals, he played in 12 games. Hextall played the other 8. In fact, i remember Hextall between the pipes sprawled out on the infamous Darren McCarty goal... Did Snow even play in the Finals, did he get benched cuz he was obviously grabbing bench during that big moment. Im not gonna go into his bad years...


C) Snow was part of the Flyers team that went to the Finals against the wings in '98. So he does have some experience 'winning' even though they didn't win the cup that year, as you have to win to be able to make it the SCF, but regardless, that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not he can be a competent GM. Based on your logic, Gretz should be the best Coach ever and should have got PHX to multiple cups already based on his playing career and being considered the best player of all time, but guess what... he was an epic fail in PHX, as evidenced by how well PHX did last season immediately after Gretz stepped down. don't forget, Brett Hull was a GM in Dallas for a short time too... how did that work out for them? Dallas was terrible while he was in charge. there's a long list of great players who turned out to be terrible GM's/coaches, and there's an equally long list of good to great GM's who were marginal players, or only played a few NHL games, or didn't play hockey professionally at all. Jim Devellano never played a single professional game of hockey, no NHL playing experience, no minors, no Junior, nothing, but he's in the HOF as a buillder for building the Isles dynasty and having a huge part in turning the Wings into a winning organization before Kenny Holland took over.

To refute the Gretzky comment you made, I must have come across as saying Horrible goalie/athlete = horrible GM. period. done deal. end of story. nothing else. I mentioned how Wang is a crackhead, talked about how horrible Snow was as a goalie but i think my sentiments were non-winning goalie = bad bad hiring. Wayne Gretzky was a good hire that never worked out. Im not sure where i thought Wayne would be the greatest coach of all time but his hiring at least makes sense. The Snow hiring is unfathomable in every way. Gretzky said the second most passionate part of the game is to be behind the bench, and he wanted that. He did his 02 and 06 work with Canada, working with coaches and management (Quinn, Lowe, Hitchcock) and then felt qualified to coach the Yotes. Apparently Garth Snow does not need to take this or any such path. Again this goes back to his credentials and the only logical one is his education. I agree with what Habsfan1 said," I wouldn't consider a MBA required credentials. A university degree is good but to get into that kind of position you should have some background experience in an organization, managing, before being moved into a top position.



D) Mentioning Mario in this conversation is ridiculous. Mario never coached, was never GM, isn't really involved in the day-to-day operation of the team. He's was a player, he's now an owner. He put up the money to save the team in PIT and was obviously part of the negotiations to keep the team there, but he's had very little to do with building and/or running the team. I'm sure he is probably consulted every once in a while regarding the day-to-day stuff, roster moves, etc, but he doesn't cal the shots because he's not the GM, Ray shero is.

Finally point D, if Mario had ANYthing to do with the firing of Therrien, then he most certainly was instrumental in the Penguins day to day operation which ultimately = Cup Victory. Lemieux was not on an island under a palm tree smoking cigars like a stereotypical owner. Fact is Mario eats, breathes, sleeps Pittsburgh, probably attends all 41 homes games..(travels with the team) watches games in the pressbox They show Mario often on Camera sitting in the press box watching the games. Fact is Therrien was not cutting it... the team was below .500 sitting in 10th place while making it to the SCF a year earlier. I believe, and im speculating now, that Crosby was upset with things regarding his team... went to Lemieux and together with Shero they made the decision to fire Therrien . If Penguin fans could shed some light here, that would be good but i found this article and i question the validity of it but find it postworthy and relevant to what im saying...


Winning starts at the top. Good decisions from ownership bring in the best people for front office positions and that produces a quality team. One of Mario Lemieux's goals when he bought the Pittsburgh Penguins hockey team was bringing the Stanley Cup back to Pittsburgh. Mission Accomplished!

At the '07-08 season's trade deadline GM Ray Shero brought in the highly sought after forward, Marian Hossa. It was obvious that Mario and co-owner Ron Burkle were not waiting, the time to win was now!

The Penguins went on to more or less dominate through the East to meet the Detroit Redwings in the Stanley Cup Final. The Red Wings were too tough and won the Stanley cup in six games. Still, as fans, overall we were getting our money's worth.

After just four losing seasons and a lockout the Penguins had made it to the Stanley Cup final. They were just two wins from the ultimate prize.

Under the ownership of Mario Lemieux, the organization was doing all the right things to put a winning team on the ice. A talented, gritty team that proved it could win in the NHL Playoffs, perhaps the most grueling playoffs of any sport.

Pittsburgh came into the '08-09 season with GM Ray Shero unable to sign star forward, Marian Hossa. Shero did bring in free agents Miraslav Satan and Ruslan Fedatenko. They were also able to sign tough defenseman Brooks Orpik to a long term contract.

With about thirty games left in the season the Penguins were not in a position to make the playoffs. [B]Mario and Ray Shero made a coaching change. They replaced head coach Michael Therien with Dan Bylsma from the AHL minor league Penguins
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/216217-mario-lemieux-committed-to-winning-in-pittsburgh



Please don't take this post as me saying Garth Snow is a good GM, because that is not what I'm saying, all I'm saying is your reasoning for why you think Snow is a terrible GM is ridiculous. He's in a terrible situation with a terrible team, which has a lot more to do with it than him not being a winner during his playing career.

Fair enough...but hes been running things 5 years and the culture of losing has yet to stop... how much more time is he willing to get?? I think the Garth Snow experiment has treaded in dangerous water. Somebody mentioned the Yashin deal holding Snow back. Hampsterkill.. To be fair, he's never really been given a chance to properly build a winning team. When you spend to the cap floor (while counting Yashin's buyout) every year, the expectation is clearly not to win...


we have no idea whether he is a good GM because he hasn't had a real shot.
I disagree, hes had time and his time is up or pretty damn close.

Hamsterkill
01-07-2011, 07:51 AM
Fair enough...but hes been running things 5 years and the culture of losing has yet to stop... how much more time is he willing to get?? I think the Garth Snow experiment has treaded in dangerous water. Somebody mentioned the Yashin deal holding Snow back. Hampsterkill.. To be fair, he's never really been given a chance to properly build a winning team. When you spend to the cap floor (while counting Yashin's buyout) every year, the expectation is clearly not to win...


I disagree, hes had time and his time is up or pretty damn close.
I was not implying the Yashin deal was holding him back. I was implying there is no expectation for the team to win. If it were not for the Yashin buyout, the Isles would be under the cap floor. When you're icing a team that would not meet league requirements for spending if you weren't also paying a non-player, then you're not being allowed a chance to put together a team that can win.

... Also there is no 'p' in the word 'hamster'. :D

Doctego
01-07-2011, 08:23 AM
Fair enough...but hes been running things 5 years and the culture of losing has yet to stop... how much more time is he willing to get?? I think the Garth Snow experiment has treaded in dangerous water. Somebody mentioned the Yashin deal holding Snow back. Hampsterkill.. To be fair, he's never really been given a chance to properly build a winning team. When you spend to the cap floor (while counting Yashin's buyout) every year, the expectation is clearly not to win...


Do you think that he doesn't want to win?? That's crazy. He can't win. Until they get their arena situation changed, Lou Lamoriello couldn't do shit on the Island.

canuckthug
01-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Do you think that he doesn't want to win?? That's crazy. He can't win. Until they get their arena situation changed, Lou Lamoriello couldn't do shit on the Island.

Why did they send Nino Niederrieter down so fast without any explanation or just cause...?? There is youth and some talent on the team, why not use it now. kids are kids, he was only 18 and not every 18 year old is ready or cut out but Niederrieter was pretty much the tourney MVP of the World Juniors last year. the brightest star on a non-threat Swiss team... He went to training camp, made the team, scored a preseason goal or two, gotta an assist or two (<-----speculating).. caused a little shit storm against a Habs player... (i thought it was reminsicent of Crosby's early, rookie year into the league-- how he was chirpy and already claiming what was his... ) I was like yes, this Nino kid is gonna be awsome!!

but Niederrieter is never heard from again... did he even play for the Swiss this go around??? To me, an outsider of the Isles organization, it seems like Niederrieter was abolished and fired from the team and not just sent down to work on his game. He should be working on his game in the NHL. If the Oilers have an extreme youth movement overhaul in place, (it brings excitement now, team is losing playing good hockey-- the wins will come, the fans will buy that) and other teams like Colorado making the same youthful switch and the organization is winning then the same moves should be made in Long Island. The Isles have 12 forwards, im willing to bet that Nino.N. could break that roster and be better than 9 of those forwards today.



edit:

He can't win.

yes. Cant let this slip of playon words go unnoticed! come to the dark side of the force have you??

alias
01-07-2011, 01:24 PM
You obviously have no idea what's going on. Never heard from again? Nino captained the Swiss & if I were the Isles I would recognize that we're not winning anything this year, no point in keeping Nino up and potentially damaging his confidence & growth. He may be better than 9 of those forwards this year, but thats not saying much. 99.9% of 18 year olds should not play in the NHL. The best thing for him was to be sent down. He will be a much better player because of it. He's got 26 points in 23 games in the WHL and he would not be putting up anywhere near that scoring pace in this league (he had 2 points in 9 games with the Isles, he wasn't exactly tearing it up) and wouldn't be learning much of anything.

Do some research before you post.

canuckthug
01-07-2011, 01:41 PM
You obviously have no idea what's going on. Never heard from again? Nino captained the Swiss & if I were the Isles I would recognize that we're not winning anything this year, no point in keeping Nino up and potentially damaging his confidence & growth. He may be better than 9 of those forwards this year, but thats not saying much. 99.9% of 18 year olds should not play in the NHL. The best thing for him was to be sent down. He will be a much better player because of it. He's got 26 points in 23 games in the AHL and he would not be putting up anywhere near that scoring pace in this league and wouldn't be learning much of anything.

Do some research before you post.

Thanks for coming out alias. Why does Taylor Hall get the green light? He didnt do fuck all his first few games and the Oilers werent going to win either... People everywhere said, " maybe this Hall kid isnt ready" but Renny and Mgmt dont really care what people everywhere are thinking?? Look at tHall now. Is his confidence damaged because they are losing?? I couldnt disagree with "your opinion" more...

habsfan1
01-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Hall is a much much better player than Nino and that's why he stayed. Edmonton's management thought it would be better for his development if he stayed in the NHL. The Islanders management, on the other hand, thought it would be better for Nino if he was sent down. It will also allow the Islanders to keep Nino for another year since he didn't play 10 games in the NHL.

Doctego
01-07-2011, 02:32 PM
yes. Cant let this slip of playon words go unnoticed! come to the dark side of the force have you??

I have no idea WTF you're talking about.

phaneuf6
01-07-2011, 02:35 PM
Why are people still trying to debate with nineoneone? :lol:

Doctego
01-07-2011, 02:48 PM
Why are people still trying to debate with nineoneone? :lol:

I don't know. I'm starting to wonder whether he hit his head and his name here is a cry for help.

alias
01-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Thanks for coming out alias. Why does Taylor Hall get the green light? He didnt do fuck all his first few games and the Oilers werent going to win either... People everywhere said, " maybe this Hall kid isnt ready" but Renny and Mgmt dont really care what people everywhere are thinking?? Look at tHall now. Is his confidence damaged because they are losing?? I couldnt disagree with "your opinion" more...

Hall was a #1 draft pick, Nino a #5 draft pick. Hall has a supporting cast like Horcoff, Hemsky, Penner, Eberle, Gagner, Coigliano, etc. Nino has Tavares, Weight & Hunter I guess. How many 1st and 5th overall picks play a full NHL season following the draft? Since 2000 9/11 1st overall picks played the following season. Only Rick Nash & E Johnson did not. 2/11 5th overalls played the following season. That was Kessel & Luke Schenn. Sounds like Snow isn't the only GM who thinks 5th overall picks may not be ready for the NHL right away. I guess you think the Kings are idiots for not bringing up Brayden Schenn right away. I mean, look how good he's doing now, surely he could duplicate that success in the NHL too.

phaneuf6
01-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Hall was a #1 draft pick, Nino a #5 draft pick. Hall has a supporting cast like Horcoff, Hemsky, Penner, Eberle, Gagner, Coigliano, etc. Nino has Tavares, Weight & Hunter I guess. How many 1st and 5th overall picks play a full NHL season following the draft? Since 2000 9/11 1st overall picks played the following season. Only Rick Nash & E Johnson did not. 2/11 5th overalls played the following season. That was Kessel & Luke Schenn. Sounds like Snow isn't the only GM who thinks 5th overall picks may not be ready for the NHL right away. I guess you think the Kings are idiots for not bringing up Brayden Schenn right away. I mean, look how good he's doing now, surely he could duplicate that success in the NHL too.

I don't think you should use the draft position argument here seeing as Jeff Skinner (7th), Burmistrov (8th), and Fowler (12th) are all still playing in the NHL.

There's no point bringing a young talent like that up when there's no hope in hell of winning. Way better for him to lead a team in the WHL and his national team in the juniors and let him develop down there.

madsci
01-07-2011, 04:34 PM
The takehome message is that Garth Snow has orchestrated all of this so he can make a triumphant return to the crease and lead the Isles to a glorious 12th place finish. First ever player-GM. Epic.

BTW, Why not Canada?

alias
01-07-2011, 06:34 PM
I don't think you should use the draft position argument here seeing as Jeff Skinner (7th), Burmistrov (8th), and Fowler (12th) are all still playing in the NHL.

Right, but just because they are playing this year doesn't mean they should be. Personally, I don't think Fowler should be playing in Anaheim. Only time will tell with these guys, but in the past there are plenty of players whose growth was stunted because they were brought up too soon. If you look at say the top 15 picks since 2000 you'll find very few guys who played that following year, and if they did play, they probably didn't live up to the expectations their draft position would indicatate. Typically 1st or 2nd overall picks are ready for the NHL, except for certain types of players like defensemen, whereas most everyone else needs at least another year of minor leagues.

alias
01-07-2011, 06:36 PM
The takehome message is that Garth Snow has orchestrated all of this so he can make a triumphant return to the crease and lead the Isles to a glorious 12th place finish. First ever player-GM. Epic.

BTW, Why not Canada?

He wouldn't be the first ever. The first since expansion, yes.

canuckthug
01-07-2011, 08:45 PM
I have no idea WTF you're talking about.
lol. sorry. you said, "He cant win" and ive been attempting to prove that from my first rant about Garth.. and the other part about the dark side of the force was a Star Wars quote evidently gone wrong.. .


I don't know. I'm starting to wonder whether he hit his head and his name here is a cry for help.i'll have to get back to this in the Off Topic Discussion section at a later time.. no hitting of heads, no cry for help--i'll label it as crazy for now, an on/off switch that sometimes gets activated willingly.


I don't think you should use the draft position argument here seeing as Jeff Skinner (7th), Burmistrov (8th), and Fowler (12th) are all still playing in the NHL.

I was thinking Skinner for sure. I got some other names off the top of my head -- Evander Kane, Matty Duchene, Sequin, Eberle, O'Rielly, Toews, P. Kane.. I think all those kids were 18 in the NHL who got a chance to prove who they could be. Obviously there are other kids unnamed who have less talent and skill than Niederriter who got longer stints. El Nino did not get the chance he deserved... He had a 9 game window before being sent down and one of the reasons was because Snow didnt want to sign him on a rookie contract (probably because of his inability to budget a team properly)


There's no point bringing a young talent like that up when there's no hope in hell of winning. Way better for him to lead a team in the WHL and his national team in the juniors and let him develop down there.
I think the Isles should have given him a chance... at least 30 games to see how he stands/stacks up. What about Eberle last sesaon?? He was a young talent in a market with no chance in hell of winning and i think the Oilers are much better for taking the route they did.

Edit: shit., Eberle was 19/20 years old last year-- stricken from the record.

phaneuf6
01-07-2011, 08:55 PM
30 games and he uses up a year of his contract and costs them money. It doesn't make sense for the Isles.

alias
01-08-2011, 11:14 AM
youre talking like they got rid of Nino forever and he'll never be back.

boredguy
01-08-2011, 11:55 AM
Toews was 19 his rookie year rookie year, P. Kane turned 19 two months into the season. Eberle didn't play a game in the NHL last season and he's 20 this season. Hall turned 19 two months into the season. Nino turned 18 in Sept.

Of course even all that doesn't matter as players develop at different rates. What's good for 1 player isn't gonna be what helps the guy next to him. There are plenty of players with more skill than Nino does at his age and didn't even get the 9 games.

And i gotta ask, did you even see a single game that Nino played in?

canuckthug
03-05-2011, 09:18 PM
Seems like media outlets everywhere (yahoo, tsn, cbc, etc, etc...) are talking about Winnipeg getting a team back. The Yotes have some major issues to address in the very near future. Honestly, i dont hear much on the streets except for the rumblings in the local papers. Maybe its a calm before the storm sorta thing.

It could very well happen though... Im getting ahead of myself but If Winnipeg does come back (and the Jets happen to make the Postseason), Pittsburgh should give up " that thing they call a whiteout"--- what a freakin joke that is!! :lol: