Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[keyboard]

I understand the Ryan thing had an effect, but things like that happen every year to teams.

As for the Dodgers without Broxton, we will be fine. Trancoso will be fine closing out games. It won't hinder their play. Torre is the best late inning manager I've ever seen. Just like the Yankees did with him, the Dodgers do the same in winning late in the game, or in 1 run games.

We lost Manny and battled through it and played very good baseball. Teams go through the swings in a season as long as the baseball season is.I don't think you've been following this team closely though you post in this thread like you do, so maybe I'm wrong, but do you have any idea how many injuries to the rotation there have been this season? It wasn't just the "Ryan thing", it was the combination of that and the rotation injuries. When talking about 2010, getting over those things (moving Downs into the closer role, getting healthy arms back, getting young arms experience, etc) will make this team a contender.


What exactly has he done?Considering the payroll, he's made a few bad signings (Ryan, Thomas, Koch, I'm not sold he's responsible for the Wells contract), and not a single bad trade. Great FA acquisitions, and completed the payroll goal when he first joined the team. Compare him to any GM (especially those in the AL East) and you'll see he's done incredibly well. Everyone thinks it comes down to the fact the team hasn't made the playoffs, to me, it's more than that. It's not like a magic GM will come in and change that. Ricciardi is as good as it gets, if he can't get this team to the playoffs, to me that has a lot more to do with the division and payroll than anything else.

If you're really curious, look back in this thread. We've discussed it a few times.

[dw13]

Considering the payroll, he's made a few bad signings (Ryan, Thomas, Koch, I'm not sold he's responsible for the Wells contract), and not a single bad trade. Great FA acquisitions, and completed the payroll goal when he first joined the team. Compare him to any GM (especially those in the AL East) and you'll see he's done incredibly well. Everyone thinks it comes down to the fact the team hasn't made the playoffs, to me, it's more than that. It's not like a magic GM will come in and change that. Ricciardi is as good as it gets, if he can't get this team to the playoffs, to me that has a lot more to do with the division and payroll than anything else.

If you're really curious, look back in this thread. We've discussed it a few times.

Once again, if that is how you want to route for your team so be it. I have already said, Kam, that I don't follow the Jays as much as you guys. The fact of the matter is, I think the main goal of any team is the playoffs and beyond. To put JP's name in with some of the leagues best GM's, I just don't agree with. I agree though, the AL East is rough. He has done a good job at keeping the team afloat but he isn't one of the games best GM's.

I guess we just have different views on what you should be the goal of the team, and GM. Then again, I've never favored a team in the AL East and that division is extremely rough. As I said before the Halladay rumors came, if you guys can afford him, you lock him up in the offseason and go for it in 2010 and years after.

[keyboard]

I'm not sure that either Clay Buchholz or Clayton Kershaw fit that billing, although Kershaw is MUCH closer. One's a 25 year old with a lifetime MLB ERA of 5.60. One's a 21 year old with great stuff and decent numbers this year, but an absolutely abysmal walk rate that he needs to drastically cut down. Admittedly I'd put alot of stock in Kershaw's control being "on the way", so I don't HATE that idea. But he's the ONLY name I've heard that I like at all when it comes to this.Yeah, the only trade I liked was Cueto/Bruce, but I don't think that happens.

[keyboard]

Tallet might be out of the rotation (his arm is probably fucked with the innings he's throwing) which means 3 of the 4 starters are rookies right now. :lol:

[dw13]

If this ever happened, it'd have to be a SURE thing, a trade that can't possibly not make the team better. I'm not sure that either Clay Buchholz or Clayton Kershaw fit that billing, although Kershaw is MUCH closer. One's a 25 year old with a lifetime MLB ERA of 5.60. One's a 21 year old with great stuff and decent numbers this year, but an absolutely abysmal walk rate that he needs to drastically cut down. Admittedly I'd put alot of stock in Kershaw's control being "on the way", so I don't HATE that idea. But he's the ONLY name I've heard that I like at all when it comes to this.

I agree with the Buchholz trade talk. But again, they would have to throw in someone like Casey Kelly and Lars Anderson, both who are pretty valuable. I don't think it gets it done for the Jays though.

As for Kershaw, he is 21, been in the league for about a year now and has dynamite stuff. He has a plus fastball, and a top 5 curveball in the league. He is primed to be a Cy-Young in the future. The walk ratio this year is simply due to the fact that he hasn't really figured out how to pitch in the bigs. He relies alot on his stuff, and judging by his numbers thats pretty impressive. Once he figures out the bigs he will be special.

My Dodgers simply don't have the prospects to land Halladay, atleast not this year. DeJesus is hurt and Lambo is too young. They both are top 5 prospects for us, to go with Kershaw. It would gut the Dodgers for the long run, and I can't see them doing it.

[b_illin]

I don't go to this thread much b/c I am not a Jays guy, but IMO The Jays aren't going to go far this year- it seems like some of your top guys aren't producing as expected (Wells, Rios) and that makes the middle of the order a little soft. Plus there are rotation issues. In the pen,you had to cut bait with Ryan, which has to hurt $$$. But as long as the Jays are willing to pay, they should keep Halliday (not that my Yanks wouldn't want that guy- who wouldn't- he's class all the way). You can build around an ace like that, they don't grow on trees. Getting prospects are hit or miss.

I just saw the highlights on the Jays vs Sox and I have to say that the Jay road unis look a little like pajamas... I don't remember them looking like that. If this has been discussed already- sorry for the rehash.

Those are out retro home jerseys...circa mid-80's

[b_illin]

I don't think you've been following this team closely though you post in this thread like you do, so maybe I'm wrong, but do you have any idea how many injuries to the rotation there have been this season? It wasn't just the "Ryan thing", it was the combination of that and the rotation injuries. When talking about 2010, getting over those things (moving Downs into the closer role, getting healthy arms back, getting young arms experience, etc) will make this team a contender.

Considering the payroll, he's made a few bad signings (Ryan, Thomas, Koch, I'm not sold he's responsible for the Wells contract), and not a single bad trade. Great FA acquisitions, and completed the payroll goal when he first joined the team. Compare him to any GM (especially those in the AL East) and you'll see he's done incredibly well. Everyone thinks it comes down to the fact the team hasn't made the playoffs, to me, it's more than that. It's not like a magic GM will come in and change that. Ricciardi is as good as it gets, if he can't get this team to the playoffs, to me that has a lot more to do with the division and payroll than anything else.

If you're really curious, look back in this thread. We've discussed it a few times.

Bad signing: Koskie
Bad trade: Koskie

PS: while JP's record is neither good nor bad in my eyes, he has done a piss poor job in PR. There is a reason everyone around the league, players, GM's, fans think he is a goof and a dick...because he is a good and a dick. I'm curious to see how this will be argued!

[keyboard]

Bad signing: Koskie
Bad trade: KoskieKoskie for Wolfe/salary dump? What was wrong with that?

[b_illin]

Koskie for Wolfe/salary dump? What was wrong with that?

we paid a lot of that salary after he was traded. (JP singed him because, at the time, nobody would sign in Toronto. He overpaid, and then a year later paid MIL to take him)

[keyboard]

we paid a lot of that salary after he was traded. (JP singed him because, at the time, nobody would sign in Toronto. He overpaid, and then a year later paid MIL to take him)MIL paid over $2 million, TOR paid the remaning $7 million or so.

3 or 4 bad contracts during his tenure? Off with his head!

Now, someone go examine BOS and NYY. See how much money they have wasted in the past 8 years and how many bad signings they've done.

[b_illin]

Koskie signed a three-year, $17.5-million deal with the Toronto Blue Jays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blue_Jays) on December 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_14), 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004). An injury-plagued 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_in_baseball) cut his productivity and playing time, as he struggled with a .249 average, with 11 home runs, 36 RBI, and 4 stolen bases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_bases) in 97 games. Despite his frequent injuries, Koskie was regarded as one of the more athletic third basemen in the game.
On January 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006), he was traded by the Blue Jays to the Milwaukee Brewers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Brewers) for pitcher Brian Wolfe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Wolfe). The deal was widely viewed as a salary dump for the Blue Jays, who had also created a logjam at third base when they traded for Troy Glaus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Glaus). With several players on the roster at that time capable of playing third base (Koskie, Glaus, Eric Hinske (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hinske), Shea Hillenbrand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shea_Hillenbrand), and Aaron Hill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Hill_%28baseball%29)) and no assurances of regular playing time from Blue Jays GM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_manager_%28baseball%29) J.P. Ricciardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.P._Ricciardi), Koskie was traded just a year after being the Blue Jays' 2004 offseason marquee free agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_agent) signing. When the Brewers acquired Koskie, he had $11.6 million in guaranteed money remaining on his contract. His salary was $5.25 million in '06, and $5.85 million in '07. The Brewers paid $2 million each season, with the Blue Jays paying $3.25 million in '06 and $3.85 million in '07.


Top GM's don't make moves like this.

[keyboard]

Top GM's don't make moves like this.Name a top GM and I'll show you bad deals he's done. How about Matsuzaka to start? Or Wang?

[dw13]

Now, someone go examine BOS and NYY. See how much money they have wasted in the past 8 years and how many bad signings they've done.

Horrible argument. They have the money to off-set a bad contract or signing. Toronto simply doesn't.

[keyboard]

Horrible argument. They have the money to off-set a bad contract or signing. Toronto simply doesn't.We are talking about the quality of the moves, not sure what you're talking about. Considering how little wiggle room Ricciardi has, he's made 3 really bad signings in his tenure, and they seem glaring when in reality, they are not.

[CayugaPosse]

Top GM's don't make moves like this.

Now you're being rediculous.

If you're going to use signing a guy who just hit 25 HR the year before to a contract as evidence of what "top GM's don't do", then god help us I'll crucify every GM in the sport. Seriously, go ahead and test me, name any GM in baseball and I will CRUCIFY him, if you think signing a guy who was just coming off a 25 HR season, was a lifetime .275/.367/.458 hitter, and grew up in your back yard, to a contract for $6 million a season is a move that no "top GM" would ever make...I defy you to name a GM I can't find a move worse than that from.

Obviously, Corey Koskie didn't work out, but it's absolutely asenine to say that signing was horrible, it was logical, and everyone was happy he did it at the time, Canadian kid with solid production coming home for a reasonable price? Hell ya.

Now you use it to cite how terrible JP is?

[dw13]

$6 Million for a guy who hadn't played a full season yet, hit .251 the season before. I wouldn't say it was the best move, but not the worst like you said. But to add to things, you trade for Glaus the next season. Didn't you already have Hillenbrand and Hinske on the team?

Now, I'm not knocking JP as a GM because I don't know enough about him, and Jays have always been respectable. Maybe if the Jays system was loaded, I could say he has been doing a great job. He hasn't been, the Jays system is average at best and isn't getting better.

I also don't think Bill said he was terrible. I think he said top GM's don't make that move. JP isn't a top GM. Does that call for his firing? No, not at all. Hell, JP has been much better than Colletti (not saying much). Although he has made up for it with Manny, Blake and Torre. Before that was just abysmal.

Either way, to say JP is one of the top GM's in baseball, is stupid. Get to the playoffs, and I'll give him a thumbs up. I don't care about the division.

[b_illin]

Now you're being rediculous.

If you're going to use signing a guy who just hit 25 HR the year before to a contract as evidence of what "top GM's don't do", then god help us I'll crucify every GM in the sport. Seriously, go ahead and test me, name any GM in baseball and I will CRUCIFY him, if you think signing a guy who was just coming off a 25 HR season, was a lifetime .275/.367/.458 hitter, and grew up in your back yard, to a contract for $6 million a season is a move that no "top GM" would ever make...I defy you to name a GM I can't find a move worse than that from.

Obviously, Corey Koskie didn't work out, but it's absolutely asenine to say that signing was horrible, it was logical, and everyone was happy he did it at the time, Canadian kid with solid production coming home for a reasonable price? Hell ya.

Now you use it to cite how terrible JP is?

I didn't. I used it to refute Kam's claim that he is a top Gm in the league.

[keyboard]

I didn't. I used it to refute Kam's claim that he is a top Gm in the league.Name me a GM you think is better.

[dw13]

Name me a GM you think is better.

Epstein, Beane, Melvin, Kenny Williams, Friedman, Dombrowski, Jocketty, Sabean (still, even with the couple of down seasons). I'd also put MacPhail up there, although he hasn't been in charge for long.

I'm probably forgetting one or two.

[keyboard]

Epstein, Beane, Melvin, Kenny Williams, Friedman, Dombrowski, Jocketty, Sabean (still, even with the couple of down seasons). I'd also put MacPhail up there, although he hasn't been in charge for long.

I'm probably forgetting one or two.
Epstein? Really? So we're ignoring the moves for Clement, Renteria, Mirabelli, Giambi, Pena, and Crisp? And you're getting on Ricciardi for Koskie? He's not good, he's overrated. Second highest payroll in baseball, if you can't put a competitive product on the field, you'd have to be retarded.

Put Ricciardi's top 5 worst moves against the guys in that list, I see Ricciardi winning (except Beane). Now, a lot has to do with payroll, can't make big mistakes if you can't afford them, but if that's true, the flipside should also be true; can't be criticized for being unable to make big moves. Assembling the best bullpen in baseball wasn't a fluke, and wasn't done spending a lot of money. Much harder to assemble a lineup without money.

[dw13]

Epstein? Really? So we're ignoring the moves for Clement, Renteria, Mirabelli, Giambi, Pena, and Crisp? And you're getting on Ricciardi for Koskie?

Crisp was good for them. Clement was never significant. Mirabelli was Wakefields catcher, why you put him in there, beyond me.

I never said a word about Koskie's sign. Just said it wasn't great, wasn't too bad.

Glad to see you couldn't refute any of the rest of them. Now you are looking up each and every GM, hop back to me when youve done your homework. :D

I only came up with 8 and possibly 9 better. That means JP is in the top 3rd of the GM's list. That is solid to me.

[keyboard]

Crisp was good for them. Clement was never significant. Mirabelli was Wakefields catcher, why you put him in there, beyond me.There are several bad moves made by him. Many more than Ricciardi made. It's all hypothetical discussion, but Epstein wouldn't have made this team any better if he were the GM, he's overrated.

As for the rest of the GMs, maybe if I have some free time. But it won't matter, you think playoff berths are the only value to a GM's tenure. If you're going to ignore the AL East effect, no point in discussing it.

[dw13]

There are several bad moves made by him. Many more than Ricciardi made. It's all hypothetical discussion, but Epstein wouldn't have made this team any better if he were the GM, he's overrated.

As for the rest of the GMs, maybe if I have some free time. But it won't matter, you think playoff berths are the only value to a GM's tenure. If you're going to ignore the AL East effect, no point in discussing it.

Epstein has also loaded the farm system, brought titles to Boston and kept the team atop that AL East you speak of. That is no easy task.

I never said it was all about playoffs, look at the list I gave you, most don't make playoffs year in and year out. If you think playoffs have little to do with the achievements of a GM, you are really mistaken.

As I have said, if JP has made the Jays system in the top 3rd of the league, and made the playoffs in the past, as well as keeping the team respectable like that have been. Then I'd put JP on par with those 8 GM's.

[keyboard]

I never said it was all about playoffs, look at the list I gave you, most don't make playoffs year in and year out. If you think playoffs have little to do with the achievements of a GM, you are really mistaken.
Oh, this threw me off:
Get to the playoffs, and I'll give him a thumbs up. I don't care about the division.

[dw13]

I keep forgetting, you Jays fans are fine with 3rd/4th place finishes because it's the AL East, forgive me. Playoffs have nothing to do with being a good GM in Toronto. Again, forgive me.

[b_illin]

Name me a GM you think is better.

Michael Hill (FLA), Dave Dombrowski (DET), Billy Beane (OAK), Doug Melvin (MIL), Theo Epstein (BOS) and there are a number of mediocre guys like JP....which in my eyes makes JP a medicore GM...with a big mouth and a jerk personality. That's why everypne rags on him.

[dw13]

Michael Hill (FLA), Dave Dombrowski (DET), Billy Beane (OAK), Doug Melvin (MIL), Theo Epstein (BOS) and there are a number of mediocre guys like JP....which in my eyes makes JP a medicore GM...with a big mouth and a jerk personality. That's why everypne rags on him.

If I'm not mistaken, Hill is in his first season for Florida Bill. I could very well be wrong, but if so, he shouldn't be on that list, yet. Love what Florida is doing down there though.

Dombrowski is great and has been for decades, and I agree with the rest.

[CayugaPosse]

Don't be stupid dawinna, this has nothing to do with us being happy the Jays don't make the playoffs, it also has something to do with us being realists, and seeing the division we're in as a main hinderance. It'd be lovely to make the playoffs, the simple truth is it's much harder here than it is elsewhere...

If JP failed to do his job well, I'd call for him to be fired. I think he's done a fine job constructing a team that's been competitive for a while now. The last 3 years they've put up winning records, which shows that JP's doing something right, considering how young the vast majority of the core of this team is.

As for the list of GM's that are better, here, I'll do this without looking and see how far I can get(if I did research I'm fairly sure I'd crush this contest) :

Brian Sabean : ARE YOU KIDDING ME? He signed Barry Zito for $400 trillion dollars. He traded Fransisco Liriano, Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for AJ Pierzynski in what is arguably the most famous bad trade of the last 15 years in baseball(outside of maybe Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano). This is absurd.

Kenny Williams : Awesome. He traded Carlos Lee straight up for Scott Podsednik. Absolutely rediculous.

Those were the two that immediately jumped out at me.

A few of them I don't understand what they've done to qualify for the list...Doug Melvin? Not sure I get it...he traded a ton of shit to get CC Sabathia for half a year? That makes him a top GM?

Andrew Freidman? He's done a nice job, with a few glaring mistakes(Pat Burrell), however, Chuck LaMar who came before him is responsible for :

Scott Kazmir, James Shields, Carl Crawford, BJ Upton.

Friedman is responsible for Garza, Bartlett, Longoria and Pena.

Billy Beane I have no beef with, I kinda take offense to the inclusion of Theo Epstein but I concede that he's done alot of good and can see why he'd make the list...

Interesting side note : How the hell can you include Andy McPhail on the list? You're saying JP's not a top GM because they don't make the playoffs, when was the last time the Orioles were playoff bound? What the fuck has he done to get any mention? The Jays have been consistently better than the O's for years now.

Look, I'm not arguing that JP's a top GM, I'm actually arguing there are very few top GM's in baseball. Billy Beane, absolutely baffled you didn't even mention him over goddamn Brain Sabean, but Bill Smith in Minnesota is another guy I'd class as a "top GM". Outside of that I'm already running out of room.

I think alot of GM's do servicable jobs, they make mistakes, and they have successes. I think JP belongs on that list.

[b_illin]

If I'm not mistaken, Hill is in his first season for Florida Bill. I could very well be wrong, but if so, he shouldn't be on that list, yet. Love what Florida is doing down there though.

Dombrowski is great and has been for decades, and I agree with the rest.

I think he's been around for at least all of last season...not sure myself...but like what whoever is doing in FLA

We wanted to hire Dombrowski over JP but DET got him before we could. (if memory serves)

[dw13]

Don't be stupid dawinna, this has nothing to do with us being happy the Jays don't make the playoffs, it also has something to do with us being realists, and seeing the division we're in as a main hinderance. It'd be lovely to make the playoffs, the simple truth is it's much harder here than it is elsewhere...

If JP failed to do his job well, I'd call for him to be fired. I think he's done a fine job constructing a team that's been competitive for a while now. The last 3 years they've put up winning records, which shows that JP's doing something right, considering how young the vast majority of the core of this team is.

As for the list of GM's that are better, here, I'll do this without looking and see how far I can get(if I did research I'm fairly sure I'd crush this contest) :

Brian Sabean : ARE YOU KIDDING ME? He signed Barry Zito for $400 trillion dollars. He traded Fransisco Liriano, Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for AJ Pierzynski in what is arguably the most famous bad trade of the last 15 years in baseball(outside of maybe Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano). This is absurd.

Kenny Williams : Awesome. He traded Carlos Lee straight up for Scott Podsednik. Absolutely rediculous.

Those were the two that immediately jumped out at me.

A few of them I don't understand what they've done to qualify for the list...Doug Melvin? Not sure I get it...he traded a ton of shit to get CC Sabathia for half a year? That makes him a top GM?

Andrew Freidman? He's done a nice job, with a few glaring mistakes(Pat Burrell), however, Chuck LaMar who came before him is responsible for :

Scott Kazmir, James Shields, Carl Crawford, BJ Upton.

Friedman is responsible for Garza, Bartlett, Longoria and Pena.

Billy Beane I have no beef with, I kinda take offense to the inclusion of Theo Epstein but I concede that he's done alot of good and can see why he'd make the list...

Interesting side note : How the hell can you include Andy McPhail on the list? You're saying JP's not a top GM because they don't make the playoffs, when was the last time the Orioles were playoff bound? What the fuck has he done to get any mention? The Jays have been consistently better than the O's for years now.

Look, I'm not arguing that JP's a top GM, I'm actually arguing there are very few top GM's in baseball. Billy Beane, absolutely baffled you didn't even mention him over goddamn Brain Sabean, but Bill Smith in Minnesota is another guy I'd class as a "top GM". Outside of that I'm already running out of room.

I think alot of GM's do servicable jobs, they make mistakes, and they have successes. I think JP belongs on that list.

There ya go, look at one of Sabeans sign and go wild. You really have no regard for things in the past, before and after that or the farm system. That staff and everything else he has loaded into that farm system, his rebuild is well on its way to a success.

Kenny Williams has acquired: Quentin, Danks, Floyd, and many more huge prospects on the rise. He also has a world title, he might not do things the way you like it, but he gets it done.

Doug Melvin led Texas to the organizations only playoff appearances. Not to mention got the Brewers in for the first time in almost 3 decades. Making a gutsy trade like he did for CC adds to his resume.

Freidman has done more than just adding the players you have gotten to. He has added stability to the team, he also has had some solid drafts thus far. Add in the fact THEY WENT TO THE WORLD SERIES LAST YEAR. I'd give him his props.

As for MacPhail, I didn't put him on there and said I'd like to see more from him. I gave him too much credit for the scouting eye he had before he has become the GM. He has been there for going on 2 years soon. But in the scouting department for the O's: Matusz, Tillman, traded for Adam Jones. He also laid the ground work for Minnesota.

Speaking of Minnesota, that trade that Bill Smith made for Santana lands him on your list?

I also said I'd put JP in the top 3rd of the league and if you think he belongs higher, so be it. You really need a farm system, too.

Once again, I'm really sick of the AL East excuse. I've never once said JP should be fired, but I've always been against your claims of 2010 being a year to compete. In 2010, you'll have even more of a struggle staying above the O's, just like you will this season.

Edit: I don't know why you said I forgot Beane. He was on my damn list.

[CayugaPosse]

There ya go, look at one of Sabeans sign and go wild. You really have no regard for things in the past, before and after that or the farm system. That staff and everything else he has loaded into that farm system, his rebuild is well on its way to a success.

Kenny Williams has acquired: Quentin, Danks, Floyd, and many more huge prospects on the rise. He also has a world title, he might not do things the way you like it, but he gets it done.

Doug Melvin led Texas to the organizations only playoff appearances. Not to mention got the Brewers in for the first time in almost 3 decades. Making a gutsy trade like he did for CC adds to his resume.

Freidman has done more than just adding the players you have gotten to. He has added stability to the team, he also has had some solid drafts thus far. Add in the fact THEY WENT TO THE WORLD SERIES LAST YEAR. I'd give him his props.

As for MacPhail, I didn't put him on there and said I'd like to see more from him. I gave him too much credit for the scouting eye he had before he has become the GM. He has been there for going on 2 years soon. But in the scouting department for the O's: Matusz, Tillman, traded for Adam Jones. He also laid the ground work for Minnesota.

Speaking of Minnesota, that trade that Bill Smith made for Santana lands him on your list?

I also said I'd put JP in the top 3rd of the league and if you think he belongs higher, so be it. You really need a farm system, too.

Once again, I'm really sick of the AL East excuse. I've never once said JP should be fired, but I've always been against your claims of 2010 being a year to compete. In 2010, you'll have even more of a struggle staying above the O's, just like you will this season.

Edit: I don't know why you said I forgot Beane. He was on my damn list.

I didn't say you forgot Beane...I said you forgot Smith. I worded it badly I admit.

I don't think JP belongs higher than top 3rd in the league, that's probably a pretty fair place for him. It also doesn't warrant firing him just because he hasn't made the playoffs...

Sabean is a terrible GM, that much I'll argue with you until I die. Kenny Williams the same, he did hit a HR with Carlos Quentin, but the rest is pretty bad...and their world series is one of the biggest flukes in recent memory.

The rest of them are fair, I'm just nitpicking I admit, but that's really what Jays fans are always doing by bringing up something like Corey Koskie, which is also extreme nitpicking.

The only thing I take offense to in your most recent post is "You really need a farm system".

Have you watched the Jays this year? They've had injuries to 417 pitchers(exactly that number, look it up), and yet more new guys keep coming up from that horrible system and producing.

EDIT : And there are a couple other people down in the farm system that should be ready to produce soon - JP Arencibia, Brett Cecil, Travis Snider and "Tiny" Tim Collins(debatable at what he's going to acheive in his career, but he has dynamic stuff and is posting insane numbers so far through his minor league career)
(http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=MLB&id=5023)

[dw13]

I didn't say you forgot Beane...I said you forgot Smith. I worded it badly I admit.

I don't think JP belongs higher than top 3rd in the league, that's probably a pretty fair place for him. It also doesn't warrant firing him just because he hasn't made the playoffs...

Sabean is a terrible GM, that much I'll argue with you until I die. Kenny Williams the same, he did hit a HR with Carlos Quentin, but the rest is pretty bad...and their world series is one of the biggest flukes in recent memory.

The rest of them are fair, I'm just nitpicking I admit, but that's really what Jays fans are always doing by bringing up something like Corey Koskie, which is also extreme nitpicking.

The only thing I take offense to in your most recent post is "You really need a farm system".

Have you watched the Jays this year? They've had injuries to 417 pitchers(exactly that number, look it up), and yet more new guys keep coming up from that horrible system and producing.

Those kids are producing? Since you've had those injuries (mid-may) you've been under .500. I can agree you are injury bitten, but you have one of the worst farm systems in all of baseball, no if/ands/buts about it.

I never nitpicked about Koskie, I just said it wasn't a good sign. Not the worst, just bad.

Have you see what the Giants are doing? Sabean has done very well with his rebuild.

Kenny Williams got Floyd and Danks as well, and has a title, either lucky or not, titles don't come lucky.

Smith's trade of Santana instantly removes him.

Either way, I know you are nitpicking but I'm not just going to sit down and let you roll over me. JP is a midlevel GM, and I don't think he should be fired. My point to Kam (who made the comment of "name a better GM") is that JP isn't the best GM.

As I have said before, I respect how competitive the Jays have been in the past handful of years.

:beer::beer:

[CayugaPosse]

Those kids are producing? Since you've had those injuries (mid-may) you've been under .500. I can agree you are injury bitten, but you have one of the worst farm systems in all of baseball, no if/ands/buts about it.

I never nitpicked about Koskie, I just said it wasn't a good sign. Not the worst, just bad.

Have you see what the Giants are doing? Sabean has done very well with his rebuild.

Kenny Williams got Floyd and Danks as well, and has a title, either lucky or not, titles don't come lucky.

Smith's trade of Santana instantly removes him.

Either way, I know you are nitpicking but I'm not just going to sit down and let you roll over me. JP is a midlevel GM, and I don't think he should be fired. My point to Kam (who made the comment of "name a better GM") is that JP isn't the best GM.

As I have said before, I respect how competitive the Jays have been in the past handful of years.

:beer::beer:

"Title's don't come lucky."

Yes, Jon Garland, Freddy Garcia, Jose Contreras, Mark Buehrle, Orlando Hernandez turning into the best SP staff in baseball, and the seasons Neal Cotts, Cliff Politte, Dustin Hermanson and Bobby Jenks being the best bullpen in baseball was in no way lucky or a fluke, it was Kenny Williams' brilliant foresight.

Outside of some things that have nothing to do with the Jays(Sabean and Williams' GM prowess, we're pretty much in agreement, so I'll stop here)

[dw13]

"Title's don't come lucky."

Yes, Jon Garland, Freddy Garcia, Jose Contreras, Mark Buehrle, Orlando Hernandez turning into the best SP staff in baseball, and the seasons Neal Cotts, Cliff Politte, Dustin Hermanson and Bobby Jenks being the best bullpen in baseball was in no way lucky or a fluke, it was Kenny Williams' brilliant foresight.

Outside of some things that have nothing to do with the Jays(Sabean and Williams' GM prowess, we're pretty much in agreement, so I'll stop here)

We are in agreement, but this is what a message board is for. The season is 162 games for a reason, so flukes don't truly happen. While yeah, I'll agree it seems crazy to think about now. Kenny Williams has a ring and has been acquiring pieces again for the past couple years.

I'll stop now though. We are on the same exact page with most all GM's, including JP.

[dw13]

Don't know where else to post this but Mr. Kershaw was filthy tonight.

[two24four]

Wow, did you guys having nothing better to do on a Saturday night in July then sit here & talk about JP & all the other MLB manager's :lol:

[dw13]

Wow, did you guys having nothing better to do on a Saturday night in July then sit here & talk about JP & all the other MLB manager's :lol:

Besides the fact that I have no life, I'm still recovering from my foot surgery :$

[two24four]

Lester vs Halladay today, should be a good game.

[two24four]

Marco !!!!

[toronto1979]

Looks like Riccardi has stopped looking at incoming offers and is now shopping Halladay. If he's getting desperate that'll drive the price down. :(

Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated reported yesterday that the Mets turned down an offer from the Toronto Blue Jays to trade their ace Roy Halladay for four Mets prospects and players: Jonathon Niese, Fernando Martinez, Bobby Parnell and Ruben Tejada.

http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2009/07/21/mets-reportedly-turn-down-deal-for-halladay/

[two24four]

I'm glad the Mets said no to that deal, because it would not be the best deal JP could get for Halladay.

I think if he goes anywhere before July 31st it will be to Philly, but they will have to add Happ into the package, which I have heard they now dont want to add Happ into it.

[dw13]

I'm glad the Mets said no to that deal, because it would not be the best deal JP could get for Halladay.

I think if he goes anywhere before July 31st it will be to Philly, but they will have to add Happ into the package, which I have heard they now dont want to add Happ into it.

I heard they don't want to move Drabek, not Happ.

[two24four]

I heard they don't want to move Drabek, not Happ.

I have heard both to tell you the truth.

[dw13]

I have heard both to tell you the truth.

Happ isn't as good as he looks this year, so I wouldn't worry about that. I've heard that the Brewers would get into the mix but it'll be in the offseason.

Don't count out the Dodgers yet, I'm beginning to believe that Torre will infact move Kershaw in a deal for Halladay

[two24four]

Happ isn't as good as he looks this year, so I wouldn't worry about that. I've heard that the Brewers would get into the mix but it'll be in the offseason.

Don't count out the Dodgers yet, I'm beginning to believe that Torre will infact move Kershaw in a deal for Halladay

That would be sweet, & I think that's the deal most us want to see if Halladay is moved, it's just who else is coming back this way along with Kershaw? If anyone know's what Halladay brings to the table it's Torre after facing Halladay for so many years.

[dw13]

That would be sweet, & I think that's the deal most us want to see if Halladay is moved, it's just who else is coming back this way along with Kershaw? If anyone know's what Halladay brings to the table it's Torre after facing Halladay for so many years.

My guess, if we move Kershaw, it could be with Lambo and DeJesus. Possibly Lambo and MacDonald or Elbert.

I think in any deal the Dodgers would take Lambo. I hope not, and would rather give up DeJesus and someone else. Lambo is young and raw but I've seen him enough to know he is going to be a legit power hitter in the future.

[two24four]

McGowan has another set back, this time with his knee.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=285482

[keys2aFranchise]

Looks like Riccardi has stopped looking at incoming offers and is now shopping Halladay. If he's getting desperate that'll drive the price down. :(

Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated reported yesterday that the Mets turned down an offer from the Toronto Blue Jays to trade their ace Roy Halladay for four Mets prospects and players: Jonathon Niese, Fernando Martinez, Bobby Parnell and Ruben Tejada.

http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2009/07/21/mets-reportedly-turn-down-deal-for-halladay/

Riccardi denied this report.

Also read somewhere that if this was the offer that Minaya would have been ALL over it and accepted.

[two24four]

Riccardi denied this report.

Also read somewhere that if this was the offer that Minaya would have been ALL over it and accepted.

Yeah because it would be a steal for the Mets.

[keys2aFranchise]

Yeah because it would be a steal for the Mets.

agreed but the point was it was not an offer, let alone one turned down by the Mets

[b_illin]

Looks like Riccardi has stopped looking at incoming offers and is now shopping Halladay. If he's getting desperate that'll drive the price down. :(

Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated reported yesterday that the Mets turned down an offer from the Toronto Blue Jays to trade their ace Roy Halladay for four Mets prospects and players: Jonathon Niese, Fernando Martinez, Bobby Parnell and Ruben Tejada.

http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2009/07/21/mets-reportedly-turn-down-deal-for-halladay/

I don't think JP is the one who is actually making the trade - it's Beeston I bet....or Beeston gets the final say.

If they don't get the right offer, they'll wait til the offseason. Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball (when you factor in personality, lockerroom presence, etc.) and everyone knows this (look at the sports shows and papers saying the same thing), so I don't see us getting ripped off.

[two24four]

Sounds like T-Bay is getting into this as well now.

[dw13]

Sounds like T-Bay is getting into this as well now.

They still have a glut of solid prospects. I wonder if Tim Beckham would be involved.

[two24four]

They still have a glut of solid prospects. I wonder if Tim Beckham would be involved.

That would be ok. I also heard that Kazmir would prob have to be coming back this way as well for $$$$ reasons.

[dw13]

That would be ok. I also heard that Kazmir would prob have to be coming back this way as well for $$$$ reasons.

I wouldn't take Kazmir back, that's just me.

I'd take something like Beckham or Desmond Jennings, Wade Miller and Hellickson, but I doubt they would give up that much, and not sure they can afford Halladay.

I've heard they have dangled with the idea of moving Crawford for Madison Baumgardner, which I think would be a GREAT move for both teams.

Baumgardner/Price at the top in a couple years would be amazing, not sure if they would pull the trigger though.

[toronto1979]

I'm glad the Mets said no to that deal, because it would not be the best deal JP could get for Halladay.

I think if he goes anywhere before July 31st it will be to Philly, but they will have to add Happ into the package, which I have heard they now dont want to add Happ into it.
Just as a word of caution. It's very unlikely that the Jays will get appropriate value for Halladay. That rumor is likely the type of trade that will finally go down.


Look at last year's Sabathia deal for a comparable:
CC Sabathia for Matt Laporta, Zack Jackson, Rob Bryson & Michael Brantley

Or Schilling to the Diamondbacks:
Curt Schilling for Travis Lee, Vicente Padilla, Omar Daal & Nelson Figueroa

Or Santana to the Mets
Johan Santana for Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra & Kevin Mulvey

Roy Halladay to the Mets for 4 prospects doesn't seem so bad now does it? If we get Kershaw in return I'll be astounded and give JP the utmost respect for that deal.

[two24four]

Just as a word of caution. It's very unlikely that the Jays will get appropriate value for Halladay. That rumor is likely the type of trade that will finally go down.


Look at last year's Sabathia deal for a comparable:
CC Sabathia for Matt Laporta, Zack Jackson, Rob Bryson & Michael Brantley

Or Schilling to the Diamondbacks:
Curt Schilling for Travis Lee, Vicente Padilla, Omar Daal & Nelson Figueroa

Or Santana to the Mets
Johan Santana for Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra & Kevin Mulvey

Roy Halladay to the Mets for 4 prospects doesn't seem so bad now does it? If we get Kershaw in return I'll be astounded and give JP the utmost respect for that deal.

Yes it does, it's not the number of prospects we would be getting back from the Mets that Iam talking about, it's who they are, they are not that great, I have heard lot's of people say that Martinez & Niese are not that great, again yes this trade would be a bad one for the Jays, why do you think Minaya said he would have been ALL over it and accepted it right away if this trade was going to happen, because this would be a steal for the Mets.

We can get much, much better prospects from Philly, LAD, T-Bay, BOS etc.....

Could be Doc's last home start for the Jays tonight.

[dw13]

Just as a word of caution. It's very unlikely that the Jays will get appropriate value for Halladay. That rumor is likely the type of trade that will finally go down.


Look at last year's Sabathia deal for a comparable:
CC Sabathia for Matt Laporta, Zack Jackson, Rob Bryson & Michael Brantley

Or Schilling to the Diamondbacks:
Curt Schilling for Travis Lee, Vicente Padilla, Omar Daal & Nelson Figueroa

Or Santana to the Mets
Johan Santana for Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra & Kevin Mulvey

Roy Halladay to the Mets for 4 prospects doesn't seem so bad now does it? If we get Kershaw in return I'll be astounded and give JP the utmost respect for that deal.

All three deals were absolutely ABYSMAL for the team giving up their player.

It's not often a pitcher of his caliber is traded, but I see what you are getting at. 24 hit it on the head, it isn't about the number of prospects, its the rate of the prospect.

Fernando Martinez does nothing to help the Jays, they have the OF they need. They need either a top notch infield prospect, with a solid pitching prospect.. or they need two big infield, or pitchers.

Kershaw wouldn't be the only player leaving in a package for him, and I'm hearing the Dodgers are strongly considering making the move.

I'd hold out until the offseason and dangle him infront of the Brewers, if I was the Jays.

[two24four]

All three deals were absolutely ABYSMAL for the team giving up their player.

It's not often a pitcher of his caliber is traded, but I see what you are getting at. 24 hit it on the head, it isn't about the number of prospects, its the rate of the prospect.

Fernando Martinez does nothing to help the Jays, they have the OF they need. They need either a top notch infield prospect, with a solid pitching prospect.. or they need two big infield, or pitchers.

Kershaw wouldn't be the only player leaving in a package for him, and I'm hearing the Dodgers are strongly considering making the move.

I'd hold out until the offseason and dangle him infront of the Brewers, if I was the Jays.

Kershaw & SS Devaris Gordon would be a start ;)

Both Halladay & Kershaw are pitching tonight, I'm sure both teams will have scouts out watching tonight.

[toronto1979]

Yes it does, it's not the number of prospects we would be getting back from the Mets that Iam talking about, it's who they are, they are not that great, I have heard lot's of people say that Martinez & Niese are not that great, again yes this trade would be a bad one for the Jays, why do you think Minaya said he would have been ALL over it and accepted it right away if this trade was going to happen, because this would be a steal for the Mets.

We can get much, much better prospects from Philly, LAD, T-Bay, BOS etc.....

Could be Doc's last home start for the Jays tonight.
That's the thing about trading for prospects. They're all gambles. Very rarely is there a sure thing in the baseball minor leagues. This ain't hockey. For every sure thing that pans out, there are a handful that don't. I hope for Cleveland's sake that Laporta is the real deal. If you're trading for prospects to build you're system, you get a handful and hope that 1 or 2 pans out.

As for Minaya and Riccardi, they're both saying the things they need to say to the press. Neither GM wants to piss off their fans. Minaya says he'd be all over it because he knows the fans would want him to get Halladay. Riccardi says he wouldn't look at that deal because he knows his fans would be upset about a deal without any MLB ready players involved.

Regardless, we can speculate all we want about rumours, fact is, when the trade finally happens, I will be SHOCKED if it's significantly different from the comparables above.

[dw13]

Kershaw & SS Devaris Gordon would be a start ;)

Both Halladay & Kershaw are pitching tonight, I'm sure both teams will have scouts out watching tonight.

Do you know much about Gordon? I like him a bunch as well, and he has wrecked Rookie and Low-A ball, but he is quiet a ways away. I think the Shortstop that would potentially get moved would be Ivan DeJesus, and you should be happy with him.

If you can somehow pry Lambo with Kershaw, you'd be even happier. He is raw as well, but has power potential, and you guys need a 1st base prospect (If you choose to keep him there)

Either way, I don't see Devaris leaving our system, but DeJesus could very well go.

[two24four]

Do you know much about Gordon? I like him a bunch as well, and he has wrecked Rookie and Low-A ball, but he is quiet a ways away. I think the Shortstop that would potentially get moved would be Ivan DeJesus, and you should be happy with him.

If you can somehow pry Lambo with Kershaw, you'd be even happier. He is raw as well, but has power potential, and you guys need a 1st base prospect.

Either way, I don't see Devaris leaving our system, but DeJesus could very well go.

Just alittle from a few things I have read the last little while, sounds like he would be a good prospect to come back in a deal for Halladay, but I'm also not sure you guys would give him up or not.

We have a pretty good 1st base prospect in David Cooper who we drafted 17th overall in '08.

[dw13]

Just alittle from a few things I have read the last little while, sounds like he would be a good prospect to come back in a deal for Halladay, but I'm also not sure you guys would give him up or not.

We have a pretty good 1st base prospect in David Cooper who we drafted 17th overall in '08.

If you guys want a SS prospect, I'm pretty sure it'll be DeJesus. I think we are keeping Gordon to eventually groom him into Furcal's replacement. But, I'm not completely sold on that, I've heard we love DeJesus, and I've heard we love Gordon. We could always swap DeJesus to second, but DeWitt is there.

I like Cooper coming out, how has he been coming along? Where is he at now, High A? I completely forgot he ended up with the Jays.

Might be looking at our pitching prospects then. I'm not sure how much we would give with Kershaw, I'm really not filled in on that.

[two24four]

If you guys want a SS prospect, I'm pretty sure it'll be DeJesus. I think we are keeping Gordon to eventually groom him into Furcal's replacement. But, I'm not completely sold on that, I've heard we love DeJesus, and I've heard we love Gordon. We could always swap DeJesus to second, but DeWitt is there.

I like Cooper coming out, how has he been coming along? Where is he at now, High A? I completely forgot he ended up with the Jays.

Might be looking at our pitching prospects then. I'm not sure how much we would give with Kershaw, I'm really not filled in on that.

He's in AA with the New Hampshire Fisher Cats.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=476036

[dw13]

He's in AA with the New Hampshire Fisher Cats, so far this season he's batting .256, 40 R's, 80 H's, 19 2B's, 4 HR's, 39 RBI's, 37 BB's, 60 SO's, OBP .334, SLG .356, OPS .690 in 84 games.

23 XBH isn't too bad, his power should keep coming around. Also 37 BB / 60 SO's are promising.

I'm chatting with a good friend and he said the Jays have more interest in Josh Bell and he thinks:

Kershaw/Bell/DeJesus would land Halladay. Gordon is definitely in the picture in place of DeJesus, and Pedro Baez for Bell.

[two24four]

Another great game by Doc, to bad they lost.

I think that was the last game for him as a Jay, weird when you think about.

Sounds like they are getting closer to a deal with Philly.

[dw13]

Another great game by Doc, to bad they lost.

I think that was the last game for him as a Jay, weird when you think about.

Sounds like they are getting closer to a deal with Philly.

Dominic Brown, Drabek and Carrasco.

Mark it down.

[two24four]

Dominic Brown, Drabek and Carrasco.

Mark it down.

Yeah those are the names that keep coming up, Jays had a scout watching Carrasco last night I guess. I would not mind a Happ or something else as well.

[dw13]

Yeah those are the names that keep coming up, Jays had a scout watching Carrasco last night I guess. I would not mind a Happ or something else as well.

It'd have to be Happ in-place of Drabek.

Getting Carrasco would be nice though, with Happ because Carrasco is arguably a better prospect than Drabek. People just have a new found hard-on for Drabek.

Dominic Brown is going to be a solid OF'er, I just thought they would ask for Donald since he is an SS, but I'm not as high on Donald as I am Brown.

Carrasco/Brown/Happ
Carrasco/Brown/Drabek

That's what I think will happen.

[two24four]

Some news from today on this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4355464

[CayugaPosse]

I only have one thing to say about the game last night :

24,161.

The most pathetic thing I've ever seen. Honest to god...

[two24four]

9-1 lead today for the Jays at one point, it's now 9-9 in the 10th :rolleyes:

Downs has been looking bad his last 3 games.

[two24four]

Angels are now trying to out bid Philly, sounds like it will take 3B Brandon Wood + one of SP's Jered Weaver or Ervin Santana + something else for them to land Halladay, I would rather Weaver over Santana myself.

[secol]

saw a rumor on rotoworld about a possible Rolen-Edward Encarnacion trade......i wouldn't mind as it'll give us a young power 3B who can play right now

[two24four]

Latest on Halladay.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4356851

I'm glad they are playing hardball here, & not just taking the 1st offer they get for him, for a team to get him it's going to have to be one hell of a deal coming back to the Jays. If Philly really wants Doc that bad for there playoff run they know what the Jays want.

[b_illin]

I only have one thing to say about the game last night :

24,161.

The most pathetic thing I've ever seen. Honest to god...

and that was a good crowd (toronto fans only show up en masse for winning teams...and the Leafs)


Latest on Halladay.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4356851

I'm glad they are playing hardball here, & not just taking the 1st offer they get for him, for a team to get him it's going to have to be one hell of a deal coming back to the Jays. If Philly really wants Doc that bad for there playoff run they know what the Jays want.

Me too. I will not trade him for the sake of trading him....only for the right deal. (Bedard hitting the DL should only help...one less option for interested teams)

[dw13]

Heard the Jays declined:

Happ, Carrasco, Donald and Michael Taylor.

:wtf:

[two24four]

Heard the Jays declined:

Happ, Carrasco, Donald and Michael Taylor.

:wtf:

They sure did, they want Drabek & Brown.

[dw13]

They sure did, they want Drabek & Brown.

It'll be interesting if they give Drabek. That deal they offered is pretty sweet, I almost like it as much as Drabek/Brown, but that's just me, I'm not as high on Drabek as many.

[two24four]

Jays & Red Sox are now talking as well.

[dw13]

Jays & Red Sox are now talking as well.

I still think they are one of the best fits just because of what they have to give to the Jays.

[two24four]

I still think they are one of the best fits just because of what they have to give to the Jays.

I would hate to see him goto an AL East team, but with saying that, I would rather see him with the Red Sox then the Yanks :D at least I could cheer for him in the playoffs with the Sox.

The Red Sox also have alot to give, starting with Buchholz.

[dw13]

I would hate to see him goto an AL East team, but with saying that, I would rather see him with the with the Red Sox then the Yanks :D at least I could cheer for him in the playoffs with the Sox.

The Red Sox also have alot to give, starting with Buchholz.

It's all about improving your team, which is the reason Halladay trade talks are going on.

Buchholz, Casey Kelly, Lars Anderson and if you could somehow get Hagadone or Bowden with that package it would be great, but even so:

Buchholz/Bowden/Lars Anderson really looks like a solid package.

[toronto1979]

saw a rumor on rotoworld about a possible Rolen-Edward Encarnacion trade......i wouldn't mind as it'll give us a young power 3B who can play right now
Saw that too - I can't figure out why Cinnci would do that though.

[secol]

sounds like they were considering before they started to fall out of the race a bit......though the drop from Rolen's glove to Edward is rather substantial lol

[phaneuf6]

sounds like they were considering before they started to fall out of the race a bit......though the drop from Rolen's glove to Edward is rather substantial lol

Edwin. Sorry it bothered me. :p

[secol]

right i keep getting the two mixed up :S

[b_illin]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/675715


Suddenly the past three weeks of daily trade deadline furor over the professional fate of Roy Halladay seems so meaningless. Tonight, the Jays' main man toes the rubber for the first time since the significant nothing of Friday's sound and fury.
The Yankees are in town so the size of the crowd in the stands at the Rogers Centre will be significant, but Halladay's start will not. He's a Jay until further notice but we're not sure how or what he feels because he's not talking about it, now or ever.
His silence is deafening and defining. Up until Friday night he had been all about cooperating with the media and, through them, communicating with the fans.
Riddle me this: How is it that the Padres and White Sox can swing a major deal for Jake Peavy, one of the three most significant names on the trade market along with Halladay and Cliff Lee and nobody is riffing publicly until the trigger has been pulled?
Then why, on the other hand, was there so much talk and misdirection on a daily basis with regard to Halladay? Was it necessary for Toronto general manager J.P. Ricciardi to keep Phillies fans so frothed up about obtaining Doc to the point where Philadelphia's mayor got involved?
And now is that the reason Doc refuses to talk about the past three weeks and swears he never will? One man, his best friend in the clubhouse, pitching coach Brad Arnsberg, is glad he remains a Jay, but sad that the whole thing went down the way it did.
"I know the all-star game was really a little bit of a downer for him," Arnsberg said. "He didn't really think he would have to deal with it like he had to. He had 30-40 media members around him before and after the (all-star game) start and the day before in the press conference. It was relentless and I think that's when it really got to him that this isn't a whole lot of fun. I don't really think if he had his way he would want to go through that again."
He shouldn't have had to go through it the first time, either. Especially with nobody from the club at his side in St. Louis to deflect the media assault to show that the organization cared about his mental well-being. But Arnsberg has optimism Halladay can stay.
"Hopefully going into next year, if we can show this horse we've got a chance of winning for the next couple of years, I don't think he would have any problem at all re-signing or signing a long-term deal if he was assured of that thought process," Arnsberg conjectured. "But if he doesn't see that (commitment to contending) I would believe that he'll probably play his lottery ticket and test the market."
The feeling in this space is that perhaps Halladay has taken his personal vow of silence so that he doesn't have to throw his GM under the bus of public outrage. It seemed in the latter stages of the campaign, Ricciardi burned more bridges than General William Tecumseh Sherman on his Civil War march through Georgia.
Halladay is not good at lying and since he knows true details of the 26-day negotiations that could possibly do damage to someone in the Jays' organization, maybe he just doesn't want to talk about them. Like in Ricciardi's disputed and rancorous dealings with Rangers' GM Jon Daniels and president Nolan Ryan.
The Rangers thought they were getting close to a deal on Thursday night. Ricciardi responded to MLB.com that same night and said there was nothing to it. He later told the Rangers that any package they put together didn't matter because Halladay would not waive his no-trade to go to Texas. That was news to the Rangers.
According to Gil Lebreon at Star-Telegram.com, "Daniels has taken the high road in his public comments about the Halladay negotiations. This, despite Ricciardi's stunt of pulling the rug from under Daniels on Thursday night and telling him that Halladay didn't want to come to Texas. Daniels had previously been assured that Halladay would accept a trade to the Rangers."
Only Halladay and Ricciardi know the truth. Halladay has chosen to remain silent. Ricciardi soldiers on.
The fact is the ace still a Jay. The loss of Halladay in trade would have done far more damage to the Jays than simply the 13 starts he was scheduled to pitch every five days for two months down the stretch. His pitching coach knows exactly.
"You set the team back because you've lost an icon-type figure and you've lost his demeanour, his personality, just who Doc is and what he represents for this organization," Arnsberg said. "Fifteen years with one organization and he's done anything and everything they've asked. Gone on three days rest. Gone on extra day's rest. Thrown out of the bullpen. He never ceases to amaze me, especially, with the things that he does. There's really nothing out of his realm, so to lose that kind of guy, yeah, it would have set us back."
But Arnsberg has been around long enough to know that even with the loss of an icon like Halladay, life would have gone on inside the Jays' clubhouse.
"You've got to turn the page," he said. "That's how baseball works. It's like being fired. I told guys if I'm fired, two or three days go by, all the tears are wiped up and the game goes on. That's what would have happened in this case, but it would have been tougher to go on in the sense that you've lost the best pitcher in the world."
Enthusiastic support for his return to the mound would not change anything down the road in terms of convincing Halladay to stay, but it would be nice to see 40,000 fans jammed into the Rogers Centre for tonight's start against the Bronx Bombers.

[b_illin]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/blue_jays_gm_confirms_there_never?utm_source=a-section

[dw13]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4384253

Someone put a waiver claim in for Rios.

Great chance for the Jays to get out from that contract if they figure out a deal to send him there.

[secol]

i sure hope they don't give him away for nothing......

[two24four]

I hear it might be SF who has claimed him.

[keys2aFranchise]

i sure hope they don't give him away for nothing......

For a team with limited financial resources getting out of that contract is not nothing.

[dw13]

For a team with limited financial resources getting out of that contract is not nothing.

Bingo. They will get something for him but it won't be major at all, getting out of that contract could pay huge dividends for them down the road.

[toronto1979]

Lincecum for Rios revisited!!!!!!


A guy can dream can't he?

[two24four]

Lincecum for Rios revisited!!!!!!


A guy can dream can't he?

You know what even worse, SF turned down the offer of Rios for Lincecum, but they said they would do a Cain for Rios deal & J.P said no, he only wanted Lincecum :rolleyes:

[dw13]

I hear it might be SF who has claimed him.

I'd say its the White Sox, then maybe SF.

[two24four]

Rios has a NTC so things could get messy if the Jays work out a deal with which ever team claimed him & he blocks the trade.

[dw13]

Rios has a NTC so things could get messy if the Jays work out a deal with which ever team claimed him & he blocks the trade.

Then let them claim him off waivers if its a team he doesn't want to go to. The Jays more than anything, want off that contract, no?

[two24four]

Then let them claim him off waivers if its a team he doesn't want to go to. The Jays more than anything, want off that contract, no?

Who know's what JP is thinking, one can only hope JP is on waivers as well :D

It would suck losing Rios for nothing thou, yes he's had a bad year, & they could get rid of his huge contract, but he's still good, & young, dude is a two time all-star already.

[dw13]

Who know's what JP is thinking, one can only hope JP is on waivers as well :D

It would suck losing Rios for nothing thou, yes he's had a bad year, & they could get rid of his huge contract, but he's still good, & young, dude is a two time all-star already.

He is making WAY too much money. Really simply put.

[b_illin]

Bingo. They will get something for him but it won't be major at all, getting out of that contract could pay huge dividends for them down the road.

We aren't in dire straits financially. I think we should take him off the waivers unless it's a decent deal - he's having an off(ish) year....we'd be stupid to let him go for nothing just because he has a big'ish contract. If he plays well next year, we'd get way more for him then if we sell low/give him away now.


Who know's what JP is thinking, one can only hope JP is on waivers as well :D

It would suck losing Rios for nothing thou, yes he's had a bad year, & they could get rid of his huge contract, but he's still good, & young, dude is a two time all-star already.

Exactly!

PS: where's Keyboard to chime in!???!


He is making WAY too much money. Really simply put.

Really, I wouldn't say he is super overpaid...

Rios gets $5.9 million in 2009, $9.7 million in 2010, $12 million each in 2011 and 2012 and $12.5 million apiece in 2013 and 2014.

[two24four]

Putting him on waivers might have been the best thing for him, another HR today for him, he also hit one last night as well, he must be trying to show the Jays he wants to stay.

[dw13]

We aren't in dire straits financially. I think we should take him off the waivers unless it's a decent deal - he's having an off(ish) year....we'd be stupid to let him go for nothing just because he has a big'ish contract. If he plays well next year, we'd get way more for him then if we sell low/give him away now.

------
Really, I wouldn't say he is super overpaid...

Rios gets $5.9 million in 2009, $9.7 million in 2010, $12 million each in 2011 and 2012 and $12.5 million apiece in 2013 and 2014.

First of all, without Rios on the payroll, you would sign Halladay instantly, to the long term deal. I know you guys are so sure its not money behind the Halladay issue, it is.

And for his contract, go look at market value for someone who plays like Rios, he is overpaid, and that contract is just super ugly. Getting rid of it is a solid step in being able to move forward, IMO.

Too bad it couldn't be Wells though, huh? :lol:

[two24four]

First of all, without Rios on the payroll, you would sign Halladay instantly, to the long term deal. I know you guys are so sure its not money behind the Halladay issue, it is.

And for his contract, go look at market value for someone who plays like Rios, he is overpaid, and that contract is just super ugly. Getting rid of it is a solid step in being able to move forward, IMO.

Too bad it couldn't be Wells though, huh? :lol:

Halladay has said no matter what he's testing FA after next season, so we offer Halladay the money they free up from losing Rios, he's says no, so then we could lose maybe Rios & Halladay for nothing really, no thanks.

[dw13]

Halladay has said no matter what he's testing FA after next season, so we offer Halladay the money they free up from losing Rios, he's says no, so then we could lose maybe Rios & Halladay for nothing really, no thanks.

You have no chance at resigning Halladay, with Rios on the pay. Regardless, Halladay should of been traded a month ago.. and if you guys aren't in contention this time next year, it's all going to look pretty dumb. You guys need to be clearing what you can to put cash in Halladays pocket.

I'd be willing to say JP is having problems sleeping about this Rios ordeal. Getting out from under that contract could truly be a blessing.

[b_illin]

First of all, without Rios on the payroll, you would sign Halladay instantly, to the long term deal. I know you guys are so sure its not money behind the Halladay issue, it is.

And for his contract, go look at market value for someone who plays like Rios, he is overpaid, and that contract is just super ugly. Getting rid of it is a solid step in being able to move forward, IMO.

Too bad it couldn't be Wells though, huh? :lol:

If we dimply dump Rios, I would think Roy would be a lot less inclined to want to re-up with us...

[secol]

First of all, without Rios on the payroll, you would sign Halladay instantly, to the long term deal. I know you guys are so sure its not money behind the Halladay issue, it is.

And for his contract, go look at market value for someone who plays like Rios, he is overpaid, and that contract is just super ugly. Getting rid of it is a solid step in being able to move forward, IMO.

Too bad it couldn't be Wells though, huh? :lol:
problem is halladay wants to win, clearing up more money for him doesn't do anything to meet his desire to win. rios is still a young talent and i also do believe he is overpaid. however clearing rios's contract doesn't mean much so i dunno why they'd let him go without getting a decent return at least

[dw13]

problem is halladay wants to win, clearing up more money for him doesn't do anything to meet his desire to win. rios is still a young talent and i also do believe he is overpaid. however clearing rios's contract doesn't mean much so i dunno why they'd let him go without getting a decent return at least

So keeping Rios, who is overpaid and on the current roster that is doing completely nothing, is helping them win? Clearing Rios, having the room to resign Halladay, and then having the flexiblity to actually add someone who is going to help the team out (preferably on your corner infield) doesn't help?

Rios is a dying cause, and you are going to have money tied to Rios/Wells/Lind and presumably Snider when he gets up and produces.

It's no wonder the infield is not up to par.

[b_illin]

So keeping Rios, who is overpaid and on the current roster that is doing completely nothing, is helping them win? Clearing Rios, having the room to resign Halladay, and then having the flexiblity to actually add someone who is going to help the team out (preferably on your corner infield) doesn't help?

Rios is a dying cause, and you are going to have money tied to Rios/Wells/Lind and presumably Snider when he gets up and produces.

It's no wonder the infield is not up to par.

I think the point we are trying to make is that it is too early to simply give up on Rios and let him go for nothing. He is having a medicore season yes, but if he plays like he has in recent years, then he will have a lot more value and will not seem so overpaid. 4 months ago this idea would seem ludicrous....and now, because he's had an off year we give him away for nothing? Um, no thanks!

[two24four]

I think the point we are trying to make is that it is too early to simply give up on Rios and let him go for nothing. He is having a medicore season yes, but if he plays like he has in recent years, then he will have a lot more value and will not seem so overpaid. 4 months ago this idea would seem ludicrous....and now, because he's had an off year we give him away for nothing? Um, no thanks!

Agreed, and even thou he's having abit of an off year, he's still putting up ok numbers.... AVG .263, 14 Hr's, 62 RBI's, 52 R's, 19 SB's...other then his AVG it's not all that bad.

[narduch]

I'm with dawinna13 on this. I would actually let Rios go for nothing if I had to.

We will be lucky if we can get a couple of lower tier prospects for him now considering his pay and his play.

For the some money you can get a corner outfielder with real production.

[CayugaPosse]

You know what even worse, SF turned down the offer of Rios for Lincecum, but they said they would do a Cain for Rios deal & J.P said no, he only wanted Lincecum :rolleyes:

You know what's fun about hindsight? How you can use it to make people look bad!

I remember back to those days...when we were discussing the possibility of that trade :

Alex Rios was coming off a year where he played 161 games, scored 114 runs, 24 HR, 85 RBI, 17 SB, hit .297, was an all-star, competed in the HR derby and actually hit more HR in the HR derby than anyone else, although he lost in the finals to Vlad Guerrero and looked like a stud in the making.

Matt Cain was coming off a year where he went 7-16. Yes I know his other numbers were solid(I'll touch back on this later), but for the sake of setting the mood, that's all you need to know.

Tim Lincecum was coming off a rookie year where he had an ERA of 4.00, once again, I'll touch more on it, but for now, mood again.

When this trade was initially discussed, I remember listening to Wilner's show being BOMBARDED by people who were absolutely IRATE with JP for even discussing trade with San Fransisco for Rios for EITHER of them. Rios was a budding superstar, how dare we consider trading him...

Now, back to the thing : I think anyone who knew baseball wanted Lincecum in that deal, if we could do that, I'd have jumped at the chance. Lincecum was a budding mega-star pitcher(as he's now become the best pitcher in the world, yes, I said that, Roy Halladay be damned), and pitching is always fun to have.

Now, as for Matt Cain, that's different. Cain was a solid but un-spectacular pitcher, putting up losing seasons(thanks mostly to bad run support), but even then, he was posting ERA's over 3.50, and WHIP's around 1.30 in the NL West(a weak hitting division), transplant him to the AL East and god only knows what would have happened to him.

Truth is, I don't believe Matt Cain is as good as this year. He's somewhere between. He's a winning pitcher, with an ERA between 3.00 and 3.50 for most of his career I would think. He's good, but he's not great...

Am I saying I wouldn't do Rios for Cain today? No. But I'm saying I very clearly understand why they didn't do it then.

It's just one of those things...think about it like this : St.Louis traded Dan Haren away for Mark Mulder. Hindsight is fun on that one too...can you fucking imagine if the Cardinals had Dan Haren right now? They'd of already won the World Series.

[dw13]

Not disagreeing with you whatsoever but just to let you know, Matt Cain was an absolute monster prospect himself. And his early woes were a sign of a bad SF team, and a young pitcher growing up. Matt Cain is a staff ace and will continue to be that for quiet awhile.

I agree with all of your post though, hindsight is always 20/20 on these things and it hurts to even look back at them.

[secol]

So keeping Rios, who is overpaid and on the current roster that is doing completely nothing, is helping them win? Clearing Rios, having the room to resign Halladay, and then having the flexiblity to actually add someone who is going to help the team out (preferably on your corner infield) doesn't help?

Rios is a dying cause, and you are going to have money tied to Rios/Wells/Lind and presumably Snider when he gets up and produces.

It's no wonder the infield is not up to par.
but the point i am making is moving rios to clear room for halladay + other pieces isn't happening because halladay wants to win and it is fairly clear he won't be able to do it in toronto in the near future. so losing rios would be a plain salary dump and nothing more, which i think don't think is the right move because rios is still young and has the tools.

[two24four]

haha, the Yanks have added Josh Towers to there 40 man roster, :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[two24four]

Sounds like it's the White Sox who have claimed Rios, we should know by tomorrow what the Jays are going to do.

[nineoneone]

Sounds like it's the White Sox who have claimed Rios, we should know by tomorrow what the Jays are going to do.

Your right. Hes gone.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2009/08/10/sp-jays-rios.html

[two24four]

Rios is now a memeber of the White Sox.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2009/08/10/rios_jays/

[toronto1979]

Ooooo nineoneone wins by a nose. Sorry two24four, you'll get'em next time champ.

[b_illin]

Holy fuck. Tres Stupide!

"From the standpoint of a financial dump, that's not the message we're trying to send," Ricciardi said during a news conference. ``It enables us to have more financial flexibility. :lol::lol::lol:

So let me get this right. JP gives VW a HORRIBLE contract...so horrible it is untradeable it would seem. So, because of this mismanagement, Rios, who was having an off year, was deemed expendable (for fucking nada I might add) because of financial felxibility...and not as a salary dump. That's fucking priceless.

[dw13]

Great move by both teams, as I said before.

[b_illin]

I have a tough time believing that we couldn't have dealt him not 2 weeks ago at the deadline. It's seems awfully bumbling in my eyes from our end of things.

[dw13]

I have a tough time believing that we couldn't have dealt him not 2 weeks ago at the deadline. It's seems awfully bumbling in my eyes from our end of things.

You would of had more than one team wanting to claim him, if you could of dealt him 2 weeks ago. No one wants that contract. The Fact that Kenny Williams has always liked Rios, and Dye's contract is coming to and end.. and their obvious need for a more reliable defensive (and offensive for that matter) center fielder, made it the right move for the ChiSox.

As much as you don't want to say it, that contract was an ugly number for the Jays. You should be relieved.

[secol]

the contract isn't pretty but it's not like they'll be able to do anything useful with the money freed up (aka resign Doc) so why not just keep Rios and let him try to earn his money???

[keys2aFranchise]

I have a tough time believing that we couldn't have dealt him not 2 weeks ago at the deadline. It's seems awfully bumbling in my eyes from our end of things.

Didn't 24 say he has a NTC ? Besides, nobody would have given prospects and take on the contract


You would of had more than one team wanting to claim him, if you could of dealt him 2 weeks ago. No one wants that contract. The Fact that Kenny Williams has always liked Rios, and Dye's contract is coming to and end.. and their obvious need for a more reliable defensive (and offensive for that matter) center fielder, made it the right move for the ChiSox.

As much as you don't want to say it, that contract was an ugly number for the Jays. You should be relieved.

I am very happy. But I don't think Rios is just having an 'off year'. His numbers have declined for 2 years now, and I am begging to think that this is the type of player he really is.

[dw13]

the contract isn't pretty but it's not like they'll be able to do anything useful with the money freed up (aka resign Doc) so why not just keep Rios and let him try to earn his money???

Uhh.. they won't use that money? Sure they will, time to go out and either try to resign Doc or make a run at some SS/3B help. I think that'd be much more useful. Lind, Snider, VW isn't a shabby OF.

Not too much confidence in your franchise if you think they will not use the money.


Didn't 24 say he has a NTC ? Besides, nobody would have given prospects and take on the contract



I am very happy. But I don't think Rios is just having an 'off year'. His numbers have declined for 2 years now, and I am begging to think that this is the type of player he really is.

I agree to a certain point. He has declined, but for a team with $$ like the ChiSox, to eat that contract, gain defense and offense in their race.. its worth it.

[keys2aFranchise]

I agree to a certain point. He has declined, but for a team with $$ like the ChiSox, to eat that contract, gain defense and offense in their race.. its worth it.

I agree. For the Sox that contract is no problem, he gives them an upgrade in CF and cost certainty moving forward next year. The move might also make Rios re-evaluate things and act as a kick in the ass.

[secol]

Not too much confidence in your franchise if you think they will not use the money.
.
no confidence at all from me.....they paid handsomely for a one year BJ and i'm sure they'll find someway to make it work out bad

[dw13]

I agree. For the Sox that contract is no problem, he gives them an upgrade in CF and cost certainty moving forward next year. The move might also make Rios re-evaluate things and act as a kick in the ass.

True story man, and its greatly beneficial to the Jays and what they need to do going forward.

[toronto1979]

Didn't 24 say he has a NTC ? Besides, nobody would have given prospects and take on the contract

I am very happy. But I don't think Rios is just having an 'off year'. His numbers have declined for 2 years now, and I am begging to think that this is the type of player he really is.
His NTC kicks in in 2011. So he doesn't have one yet, but he will once he starts making the big coin. His contract is back-end loaded, so really we're only paying him $5 million a year right now. His contract isn't an issue until he starts making $10 million a year - way more than he's worth hitting 80-18-80-.285*



*Those are pretty much his average stats over the past 5 years.

[b_illin]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/679205#


In the original Jays lineup at Yankee Stadium last night, Alex Rios was listed as the starting right fielder. By 6:30 p.m., the underachieving homegrown Rios was on his way to the White Sox on a simple August waiver claim, with GM J.P. Ricciardi getting nothing in return. Professionally, the GM seems to have become dead man walking.
Jays' ownership, represented for now by Ricciardi, unbelievably did not try or else were unable to get anything back. Just two years ago, they were dangling Rios as bait for future Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum from the Giants. They were happy to keep him, convincing fans he could blossom into a 30-30 (homers and steals) player.
Now, disappointed by his on-field play and off-field behaviour, the Jays seem satisfied with a savings of $62 million (all figures U.S.) over the next five years. They have given up on this year and next. What year are they building for now?
Is there any doubt Roy Halladay will be next to go with discussions beginning as soon as the season ends? This Rios-for-nothing result to the Chisox surely puts an end to any Halladay desire to remain in Toronto beyond – let's see, what time is it now?
With Scott Rolen, Rios and potentially Halladay leaving and with closer B.J. Ryan released, the Jays will save $68 million combined in payroll moving forward. Now, what to spend that money on? And can you trust Ricciardi to be the man to reinvest this money when they are all contracts he'd signed in the first place?
And what prime-time star player would ever sign as a free agent with an organization so messed up that in the space of 12 months they will have allowed A.J. Burnett to walk without making a sincere counter-offer, cut their closer with $15 million remaining, traded the best defensive third-baseman in baseball because he wants to play closer to home and, finally been forced to inevitably trade their best pitcher so they can afford to feed the albatross that is Vernon Wells' contract, another Ricciardi gaffe?
All of those generous deals were negotiated with eyes wide open. Ricciardi had convinced Rogers he could build a contender to battle the Yankees and Red Sox by spending more money. Last year J.P. spent $100 million and finished fourth. This year he's spending $80 million and will finish fourth. Ownership likely reasons they could finish fourth spending $60 million and maybe even with a different GM.
Ricciardi is feigning exactly the same disgust and disdain with bad contracts that he did eight years ago when he arrived and saw the bloated contracts his predecessor Gord Ash had left behind – Shawn Green, Carlos Delgado, Alex Gonzalez, Joey Hamilton and Billy Koch. The difference is that Ash was fired and Ricciardi somehow is still here.
The last 55 days of the season will be tough for Jays fans, but even tougher for the Jays' young starting pitchers.
Jays' ownership is in full retreat, clearing the decks of excess payroll in order for a GM to start rebuilding in the off-season. But which GM will it be?
The thought of a trade for Rios was not real. There was never any chance the Jays would receive anything from a team claiming Rios on waivers.
If another team had ever been interested in value-for-value, would they not have proposed something before the deadline? The Sox claimed Rios not to offer primo prospects, but to steal a talented player away from a team desperate for saving payroll. The Jays had no leverage.
According to Ricciardi, this Rios contract dumping is all about "financial flexibility and moving forward."
What a pile of manure. This is about Rogers giving up on a team and a GM and his eight-year-old blueprint for building a contender.
Dying to hear Keyboard defend JP these days...

[Lucca Brazzi]

haha, the Yanks have added Josh Towers to there 40 man roster, :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Goodbye Josh Towers, Hello Chad Gaudin... Lucky we don't use names on our uniform backs!

[two24four]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/679205#

Dying to hear Keyboard defend JP these days...

I have not seen him post in along time.

[dw13]

I have not seen him post in along time.

And it's been a mighty relief to be honest.

[b_illin]

Maybe his uber paranoia about ppl knowing his true identity got the better of him. I like keyboard, just low-key keyboard (as opposed to stirring up the shit keyboard)

[two24four]

Randy Ruiz is not bad, 2 games since being called up in Rios' place & 2 Hr's so far as the DH.

He had 25 Hr's, 43 2B's, 106 RBI's, 148 H's, 81 R's, and a .320 AVG in 'AAA' this year, not bad at all.

[dw13]

Randy Ruiz is not bad, 2 games since being called up in Rios' place & 2 Hr's so far as the DH.

He had 25 Hr's, 43 2B's, 106 RBI's, 148 H's, 81 R's, and a .320 AVG in 'AAA' this year, not bad at all.

Those are awesome numbers for triple AAA. Can I see some K/BB and his AA stats? A ball to AA ball is a the biggest jump in minor ball.

[keys2aFranchise]

Those are awesome numbers for triple AAA. Can I see some K/BB and his AA stats? A ball to AA ball is a the biggest jump in minor ball.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/1486152

[dw13]

Nevermind, 32 year old minor leaguer. Great numbers but nothing to get too excited about.

[two24four]

We will take it right now. Dude can mash.

[b_illin]

Randy Ruiz is not bad, 2 games since being called up in Rios' place & 2 Hr's so far as the DH.

He had 25 Hr's, 43 2B's, 106 RBI's, 148 H's, 81 R's, and a .320 AVG in 'AAA' this year, not bad at all.

I loved watching Doc eagerly waiting to high-5 Ruiz after last nights homer...he's so awesome....fuck you JP Ricciardi!


We will take it right now. Dude can mash.

and it's a nice story...i'd love to see him stick

[CayugaPosse]

I loved watching Doc eagerly waiting to high-5 Ruiz after last nights homer...he's so awesome....fuck you JP Ricciardi!

What the hell? Why "Fuck you JP Ricciardi!"?

[phaneuf6]

What the hell? Why "Fuck you JP Ricciardi!"?

I think the mere possibility that JP was/is going to trade Doc pisses off b_illin.

[two24four]

I loved watching Doc eagerly waiting to high-5 Ruiz after last nights homer...he's so awesome....fuck you JP Ricciardi!





Yeah & you could see Doc's eyes light up when Ruiz hit Hr today, Doc must be a fan of him.

[b_illin]

What the hell? Why "Fuck you JP Ricciardi!"?

JP's mismanagement and bumbling behaviour has, in my eyes, been the death blow to Roy staying in Toronto...any chance is likely gone now.


Yeah & you could see Doc's eyes light up when Ruiz hit Hr today, Doc must be a fan of him.

Doc's just an awesome teammate.

PS: Phaneuf, if you go back, you'll see I was ll for dealing last year....when we could have gotten a return that might actually lessen the blow of losing Doc. We'll get ripped off when we deal Doc in the offseason if JP is still with the team...who is going to take this clown seriously at this point!

[two24four]

So far Rios is 0-3 with 2 K's in his 1st game with the CWS, he's batting 3rd.

[CayugaPosse]

JP's mismanagement and bumbling behaviour has, in my eyes, been the death blow to Roy staying in Toronto...any chance is likely gone now.



Doc's just an awesome teammate.

PS: Phaneuf, if you go back, you'll see I was ll for dealing last year....when we could have gotten a return that might actually lessen the blow of losing Doc. We'll get ripped off when we deal Doc in the offseason if JP is still with the team...who is going to take this clown seriously at this point!

That's fine if you preface it with "in your eyes", in my eyes that's a stupid stance, but at least it's only in my eyes.

Halladay's the one that's been saying he's going to be a Free Agent and test the market.

There still isn't even a "death blow" for keeping Doc. Granted it's very unlikely, but it's not like he's walking for sure...if Rogers decides to pony up money he might stay.

Like it or not the death blow for Halladay staying here is on a whole host of people who went into complete remission for 2 years and wouldn't swing a bat anywhere near a baseball while the Jays were pitching machines. It's not like Halladay's packing his bags and leaving because of JP being a douche bag(which, by the way, you'll never get an argument from me that he is, my only argument is he's a douche bag who isn't a bad GM), he's leaving to try and win something.

[Roy Hinske]

Riccardi is a doche who should be run out of town on a pole.

[b_illin]

That's fine if you preface it with "in your eyes", in my eyes that's a stupid stance, but at least it's only in my eyes.

Halladay's the one that's been saying he's going to be a Free Agent and test the market.

There still isn't even a "death blow" for keeping Doc. Granted it's very unlikely, but it's not like he's walking for sure...if Rogers decides to pony up money he might stay.

Like it or not the death blow for Halladay staying here is on a whole host of people who went into complete remission for 2 years and wouldn't swing a bat anywhere near a baseball while the Jays were pitching machines. It's not like Halladay's packing his bags and leaving because of JP being a douche bag(which, by the way, you'll never get an argument from me that he is, my only argument is he's a douche bag who isn't a bad GM), he's leaving to try and win something.

Ok, if you're going to fucking split peas, perhaps Halladay was already gone...this certainly was the nail in the coffin....and I doubt any player of substance will want to play for JP in Toronto. I'd love to see you refute that!

PS: my point earlier was not so much that JP being a dick would scare Roy away, that his apparent lack of a clear plan and the team (the 'winner') he put together clearly is not good enough. Wells clearly is a horrible contract. Because of it, we had to let Rios go for nothing. We've argued the bad contract thing back and forth and I don't wan to open that up again, but when push comes to shove, this is not a good enough team. Add to that JP's antics and his behaviour/attitude, and the Jays are a very undesirable destination in MLB...as if they couldn't get any more undesirable than they already were!

[keys2aFranchise]

the nail in the coffin was the contracts the Yankees gave to 2 inferior pitchers last winter.

As far as losing Rios for nothing- it's not like there were a bunch of teams lining up for his services...if there were he would never have reached the Sox in the waiver process.

[boredguy]

the nail in the coffin was the contracts the Yankees gave to 2 inferior pitchers last winter.

As far as losing Rios for nothing- it's not like there were a bunch of teams lining up for his services...if there were he would never have reached the Sox in the waiver process.

Only teams ahead of the Chisox were Oakland, KC, Cleveland, Minny, and Orioles. Waiver claims are done by worst to first in the league the player was waived, then worst to first in the other league.

[keys2aFranchise]

Only teams ahead of the Chisox were Oakland, KC, Cleveland, Minny, and Orioles. Waiver claims are done by worst to first in the league the player was waived, then worst to first in the other league.

I thought all teams had a shot.

"Any player under contract may be placed on waivers at any time. If a player is waived, any team may claim him. If more than one team claims the player from waivers, the team with the weakest record in the player's league gets preference. If no team in the player's league claims him, the claiming team with the weakest record in the other league gets preference. In the first month of the season, preference is determined using the previous year's standings."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_transactions

Even if it does go AL than NL, doesn' it say something that not one of those teams you listed thought that he was worth acquiring for nothing? (even if it was to trade him in the offseason?)

[moans]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/08/12/worst.contracts/index.html
Here is a GREAT reason for the firing of JP.

[boredguy]

I thought all teams had a shot.

"Any player under contract may be placed on waivers at any time. If a player is waived, any team may claim him. If more than one team claims the player from waivers, the team with the weakest record in the player's league gets preference. If no team in the player's league claims him, the claiming team with the weakest record in the other league gets preference. In the first month of the season, preference is determined using the previous year's standings."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_transactions

Even if it does go AL than NL, doesn' it say something that not one of those teams you listed thought that he was worth acquiring for nothing? (even if it was to trade him in the offseason?)

It says right in your quote that it goes AL and NL.
KC, Oakland, and Cleveland have money troubles. Minny and Balt don't have much more. Paying the 2 mil or so left for this season on Rios's contract would not be appetizing for them even if they could get a decent prospect out of trading him this winter. Only reason to claim or trade for Rios would be to play him, and i'm sure there'd have been more teams then just the Chisox interested in getting him for free. Probably the Yanks, Mets and Giants at least.

[keys2aFranchise]

It says right in your quote that it goes AL and NL.
KC, Oakland, and Cleveland have money troubles. Minny and Balt don't have much more. Paying the 2 mil or so left for this season on Rios's contract would not be appetizing for them even if they could get a decent prospect out of trading him this winter. Only reason to claim or trade for Rios would be to play him, and i'm sure there'd have been more teams then just the Chisox interested in getting him for free. Probably the Yanks, Mets and Giants at least.


Alot of reports speculated it was the Giants who claimed him which supports the idea that there was very little interest around baseball in getting Rios for free, because for that to be the case all AL teams would have had to pass on him.

[b_illin]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/08/12/worst.contracts/index.html
Here is a GREAT reason for the firing of JP.


good article. loved this bit;


This deal, to be honest, is not the sort of thing that leads to a general manager getting fired. It's the sort of thing that leads to entire villages getting pillaged. And that's what I mean about Ricciardi. I mean, this contract alone should be enough to put him in the Bad Contract Hall of Fame. But when you look over the whole body of work ... he IS the Bad Contract Hall of Fame.
In fact, really, we should just start referring to bad baseball contracts as "Ricciardis."

[keys2aFranchise]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/08/12/worst.contracts/index.html
Here is a GREAT reason for the firing of JP.

with his criteria and exclusions I'm surprised he was able to find 10 contracts to judge.

Any list that excludes a contract because of injury is a joke - contracts are about speculating what a player will accomplish. Injuries, just like projected stats are a part of the equation. Beltre's deal is up so it doesn't count? :confused:

If you want to look at contracts and make a conclusion than fine (and JP's record is not really good) but it seems like the author had his conclusion and then went about trying to prove it.

[CayugaPosse]

I miss kam, at least I had some backup.

That article is so far beyond stupid it's literally horrifying to me. Jason Schmidt making $15 million dollars a year doesn't make the list because he's been injured, but we'll use JP's signing of BJ Ryan as one of the worst contracts, despite the fact that BJ actually did get something from BJ(one year of dominance, followed by Tommy John surgery that derailed his career).

The Alex Rios contract is not bad, I love how we're gonna go nuts about Alex Rios making 10 million a season over "SIX YEARS"(loved how that's his emphasis and not mine as if it's crazy to sign a young 2 time all-star to a 6 year deal). Pat Burrell makes 10 million a year, ask Tampa if they'd like Rios over him...

Yes, Wells' contract is bad, no one's disputing it, but he gives Arizona a pass for Eric Byrnes' contract because it was unavoidable("he was coming off that inspiring season and blah blah blah"), that was the same situation with Wells. No, it doesn't make paying him $20,000,000 for the next few years better, but again, let's go back in time and not use hindsight, that year he was coming off a mamoth year, public outcry was at an all time high(because we had just seen Delgado leave), and so the contract happened. Yes, it's bad. Yes, it's a mistake. And yes, it's an albatross. But it's not like there was no reasoning or basis for the signing...and it's not like JP could have told it was going to go so badly...

Also, any list of the worst contracts that doesn't feature Carlos Zambrano's 5 years, 91.5 million dollars. Carlos the past few years has been mediocre, with an insane walkrate, plummetting strikeout rate over the last few years...and now he's having health problems to boot.

Yes, JP made one drastic mistake, and if you're the guy that wants JP fired for that, that's fine, I don't necessarily hate you for that notion. However, I think it's also very short sighted to can a GM that has assembled an amazing young core of talent(that gets no respect because Baseball America or whatever else doesn't rank our farm system high, well, fuck those rankings, tell me another team that boasts a young core as promising as Toronto's who all have MLB experience.)

He's done alot right, he's done way more right than he's done wrong. Granted, what he's done wrong sucks alot(the Wells contract), but I don't believe that was entirely on him.

I think, always have and always will that people blind their feelings about him by confusing how they like him(he's a douche bag) with the job he's done. Yes, he's a douche bag, yes he called out Adam Dunn and that was stupid(by the way, if no one's noticed, Dunn may be an MVP candidate in the NL if it weren't for the fact he played for the Nationals). He's done other things that seem stupid and arrogant.

But he's also got Snider, Lind, Hill, Romero, Cecil and others coming along pretty damn nicely.

I would say for the life of me I don't understand how people overlook all he's done right to crucify him for the Wells contract, but like I said, I do understand, it's just because they don't like him. Aaron Hill can be a superhero, people can call up Wilner's show all day and brag about how sick he is at baseball, but not give JP any credit for drafting him, and signing him for basically peanuts through 2011, and yet in the other breath no one can just say Vernon Wells sucks without saying JP sucks for signing him.

Scott Downs, Brett Cecil, Ricky Romero, Adam Lind, Aaron Hill, Marco Scutaro and others wouldn't be here without him, so there's alot of right in what he's done.

[Roy Hinske]

Maybe he knows younger players better and needs to work in the minor leagues somewhere.

[CayugaPosse]

Maybe he knows younger players better and needs to work in the minor leagues somewhere.

Maybe, again, I'm not saying JP is an all knowing guru, he's made mistakes, clearly, everyone does...what I'm saying is the dislike of him in this city is unfair because he hasn't done a terrible job. He's been a guy who for the most part if you look objectively has done a fine job. He's made mistakes I'm not trying to sugar coat that. And maybe he is better suited to a minor league job, or where he was before working with the Jays, which is playing 2nd fiddle to a more experienced GM(Billy Beane).

But all this sudden outcry from the media and stuff that he's this aimless nitwit is not only unfair, it shows how asenine some people are. Any objective, rational thinking fan I think could never say JP is one of the worst GM's in the game, there are many that are way worse than he's done.

I think, not to sound conspiracy theorist, but I think some of the reason the media reacted so badly after the trade deadline and JP not trading Halladay as if he had fucked up was because they made it such a huge issue and were embarassed when nothing happened. In reality it was never that big a deal. JP was trying to float Roy out there to see if some team would grossly overpay for him. None did...and so here sits Roy Halladay in a Jays uniform.

JP is not perfect, I never have or never will say that, and I don't even disagree that he should be fired this offseason...I believe he should be. What I'm saying is the scrutiny of the job he has done is unfair and silly, because it's just not true. He's been fine as a GM, we never made the playoffs? That's a little unfair considering in this division 95 wins is practically a requirement to make the playoffs...we finished 2nd in 2006 ahead of Boston, but that was also the year Minnesota and Detroit won 95 games each to take the Central/Wild Card spot.

Yes JP should go, he's worn out his welcome, alot of the stuff he's done this year makes little to no sense(I still vehemently disagree with handing Alex Rios over for absolutely nothing...and think it's a horrible decision), but all in all, his tenure was solid but unspectacular, and I wish people would treat it as such and not as if he had us cellar dwelling every year or provided nothing to the franchise when in reality, whoever takes over has a solid young base thanks to JP's work in Aaron Hill, Adam Lind, Travis Snider, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil, etc etc.

[moans]

Blue Jays fail to sign three of our four top picks. The good news keeps on rolling. We just cut 60 mil from our payroll over the next 5 years and we can't sign our picks for a couple hundred k? I'm just waiting for the red carpet to be rolled out for JP's exit. Keep up the good work.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=288051

[dw13]

Awaiting Cayuga's response!

[two24four]

Yup, sucks they could not get most of Canadian kids signed, even more so for Paxton & Eliopoulos, he drafts 9 Canadian's & only one signs, I loved the Paxton pick when we got him, alot thought he might go in round 1.

At least he got our top pick signed, SP Chad Jenkins, even if it was for abit more then he should have got at the 20th pick.

Another kick in the ass in all of this, Paxton & Barrett where both picked with the picks we got for Burnett, way to go JP :rolleyes:

[moans]

Also, I feel we should try to make a deal in the offseason with the Angels. They have 3 solid middle infielder guys who would look great in a Jays uniform. I would say Kendrick's off limits but either Erick Aybar or Maicier Izturis would help us out immensely

[two24four]

Also, I feel we should try to make a deal in the offseason with the Angels. They have 3 solid middle infielder guys who would look great in a Jays uniform. I would say Kendrick's off limits but either Erick Aybar or Maicier Izturis would help us out immensely

I think JP tryed to get all 3 in a Halladay deal just a few weeks ago :lol:

Getting one of them would be awesome, even more so if Marco does not resign here in the off-season.

[dw13]

Yup, sucks they could not get most of Canadian kids signed, even more so for Paxton & Eliopoulos, he drafts 9 Canadian's & only one signs, I loved the Paxton pick when we got him, alot thought he might go in round 1.

At least he got our top pick signed, SP Chad Jenkins, even if it was for abit more then he should have got at the 20th pick.

Another kick in the ass in all of this, Paxton & Barrett where both picked with the picks we got for Burnett, way to go JP :rolleyes:

You're a pretty big college Baseball fan huh 24? I was one of the few that wasn't too high on Paxton at UK. He actually did go in round 1 though (supplementary). Anyways, you seem to know a bit about College baseball, I'm not huge on it but do follow to a certain extent.

Only to sign your top pick and not the couple below him is rough, and makes you wonder when you don't sign the two players essentially you got for Burnett!

[moans]

maybe JP doesn't want any kind of memory of AJ since it didn't work out too well!

[two24four]

You're a pretty big college Baseball fan huh 24? I was one of the few that wasn't too high on Paxton at UK. He actually did go in round 1 though (supplementary). Anyways, you seem to know a bit about College baseball, I'm not huge on it but do follow to a certain extent.

Only to sign your top pick and not the couple below him is rough, and makes you wonder when you don't sign the two players essentially you got for Burnett!

I would not say Iam a huge college baseball fan, I do read some stuff about the players & teams etc.... & watch the odd game here & there (like maybe 2-5 games a year) nothing more, I dont have a fav team or anything like that.

[two24four]

maybe JP doesn't want any kind of memory of AJ since it didn't work out too well!

Yeah well I'm sure most of us Jays fans dont want any kind of memory of JP :D chill Cayuga just jokes.

[dw13]

I would not say Iam a huge college baseball fan, I do read some stuff about the players & teams etc.... & watch the odd game here & there (like maybe 2-5 games a year) nothing more, I dont have a fav team or anything like that.

Gotcha. I've just seen you post a bit here and there on the college prospects so I was just wondering. I really only follow SEC College baseball (UF obviously) and thats how I know Paxton.

[toronto1979]

I'll be at the Jays game tonight.

Let's hope Romero is able to beat the BoSox!

[CayugaPosse]

Awaiting Cayuga's response!

Here it is :

JP over paid for Chad Jenkins, and didn't want to do the same with all the other players.

This is just another case of some crappy sports writer(and I say this as I get ready to go to school for sports journalism in 2 weeks) looking for a reason to shit on JP yet again. Oh he didn't sign all our Canadian players we drafted?

Who fucking cares? I don't. I want him to sign talent. I don't give a rats ass if it's from Canada or Malaysia.

And yes I know he didn't sign most of the early picks so that seems contrarian, but does anyone know anything about these negotiations? How do I know the kid we drafted in the sixth round didn't want $146 million dollars? We have no idea what the negotiations were like.

If something comes out that says JP was being unreasonable during these negotiations, then I'll take a shit on him. As I said, I have no problem shitting on him if he fucks up, as I have over the Alex Rios situation, the Wells contract(although I do maintain that's not entirely his fault, I'm sure ownership was pressuring him pretty badly from a PR standpoint, still he has to have the balls to say no), and other mistakes.

But just saying "JP didn't sign alot of our early picks fuck him he sucks" is horse shit when you have no information about the negotiations.

Keep in mind, it's not like he has a track record of being stingy with his early round picks, hell most of the guys he's picked early in the last X number of years are currently on our roster.

[narduch]

I think Ricciardi should be fired. He has had more than enough time to try to build this team. Its time to give someone else a shot. Remember, he came to town selling a bill of goods (the hole SABRmetrics thing) and changed direction afterwards. Its time to move on. All the great trades for lower end players don't matter if the entire ship isn't moving forward.

That being said, I'm not sure if the failure to sign draft picks is entirely his fault. I wonder if Rogers is tightening the purse strings. Not sure if we'll even know though.

[CayugaPosse]

It's fine if you feel that way, I don't necessarily hate that sentiment...

I think everyone in this thread, or most, mistake me for a JP homer, which I am not. I'm trying to play a level headed person in a thread where people just pile on JP and sensationalize how bad he's been.

JP's been a good GM over his tenure in Toronto.

Unfortunately, in this division with the schedule they face(playing Tampa/Boston/Yankees more than anyone else), and in direct playoff contention against Boston and the Yankees and their spending, simply being a good GM isn't good enough for the Jays to make the playoffs. Someone needs to do something brilliant.

And JP has yet to do that. So if you want him fired, I can't disagree. Just don't say he sucks, because he doesn't.

[two24four]

What a game that was tonight, 11-0 for the Jays at one point, then it was 11-10 going into the 9th, Jays get 8 runs in the 9th to win 18-10, crazy game.

Great game for Lind, 3 R's, 2 HR's (one being a GS) 1 2B, 8 RBI's.

[two24four]

Halladay holds the Yanks to one hit tonight, not bad at all.

[secol]

finally he gets back on track lol

[two24four]

Smallest ever crowd at the Skydome/Rogers Centre ever tonight, 11,159, & Halladay was on the hill.

[b_illin]

Go fuck yourself Wells


Vernon Wells vows better things ahead after 'lost season'
For Vernon Wells this has been a season from hell, easily the most miserable, personally, of his eight major-league campaigns. Entering last night, Wells' average with runners in scoring position stood at .197. His average at the Rogers Centre was .211. Worse, the abuse from the stands at home has been mean-spirited and relentless. At age 30, his critics are writing him off as washed up with the Jays still on the hook for $108.5 million (all figures U.S.) through the 2014 season.
"It's been a shock, obviously, to see the reaction from people that you've kind of grown up with throughout your career," Wells said. "You kind of get a true understanding of how some people are. Some people will jump on a bandwagon either way. The same people who are choosing to get on me now are the same people that will jump on when things are going better next year and back to normal."
Throughout his conversation, Wells makes sure to express his confidence that he will be able to get his problems straightened out for 2010.
"I've thought a lot about it," Wells said of potential solutions to his year-long woes. "I went pretty hard this off season from basically the beginning of November. I might have done too much. Going into spring training, I'll try not to do as much mental, try and just let things come to me. The last few days it's been trying to get back to being relaxed, do what you can with pitches. Just let it go instead of wanting to do so much to turn things around and falling into worse habits."
Because of the verbal abuse at the Rogers Centre, it seems like being on the road gives him a chance to relax and return to his own personality. In his home stadium it almost seems like he tries too hard to be cool about the spewed venom.
"The thing that bothers me the most from the players' side, you're dealing with a tremendous human being that plays every day, that plays as hard as he can every day, that runs the bases hard, busts his butt down the line," veteran Kevin Millar said.
"A fan has a right to boo or say whatever he wants to because he paid for the tickets, but I think sometimes the ignorance comes out if you don't know the game of baseball. But we get so caught up in this day and age with salaries that dictate jealousy, that dictate whatever in a person. Vernon Wells has never showed a lack of effort. Has never showed a lack of caring and is having an awful year. The last seven years he's been among the best centre fielders. He's allowed to have an off year."
The question for fans is not directed to Vernon's character, but to the declining statistics for a man that was supposed to bat cleanup. Is the end near for Wells?
"One thing about players, when they do have bad years they learn a lot of things," former major-league outfielder Dwayne Murphy said, arguing Wells is far from done. "They learn themselves better. All of a sudden things mentally happen and you tend to work a little harder in the off-season. You tend to make a lot more things different because of the year."
One pro scout who has seen the Jays regularly said: "Wells seems to be thinking too much. A lot of times it looks like he doesn't have the stomach for the fight, swinging early in the count at the pitcher's pitch. It doesn't seem to be anything physical."
Wells confirmed that while this has indeed been a physically healthy season, the mental aspects of the game have vexed him.
"I've been able to stay on the field all year, which is one positive," Wells shrugged. "But it's just been a constant grind to try to find some consistency. It's been one of those years where nothing ever seems to go right. I look at the big picture. This is one year out of my career. In my opinion it's just a statistical anomaly and you learn from it and you do what you can so it doesn't happen again."
For Wells it's been a year of living miserably. If the stats don't improve in the next two years and the fans continue to make it uncomfortable, there is an opt-out clause after 2011 – but that would mean leaving $63 million on the table for three years. A.J. Burnett did it because he was able to strike a better deal. Wells would have no chance.
"I don't expect my life to be miserable at that point," Wells said. "If it is, I don't think money is important enough in life to be miserable at the same time. But, like I said, I view this year as one year out of my career – a lost season. Looking back at my past you earmark it, because you don't want to have to go through this again."
The jury will be out until next September. His bounce back will go a long way in determining the direction in which the Jays are headed in 2011 and beyond.


I can't believe some of the things he said!

[Roy Hinske]

I've never been a fan of booing your own player. I just don't see how it helps. Wells has always shown a great character and I'm sure he wishes he had done better. It just may be the start of the end of the road for him.

[two24four]

Nice little bench clearing brawl tonight, Posada did not have to give Carlson that little bump at home plate like he did, good for Barajas for steping in & going after Posada. Carlson did have a nice little knot on his head after thou, someone must have got him in the pile, Barajas was going nuts.

[Roy Hinske]

Good to see the Jays sticking up for themselves this late in the season. Carlson looked like he got the worst of it though.:lol:

[two24four]

Good to see the Jays sticking up for themselves this late in the season. Carlson looked like he got the worst of it though.:lol:

Well he was on the bottom, so who know's what happend in there.

[b_illin]

At a boy Barajas!

[b_illin]

If that happens to be Roy's last game in Toronto....WOW!

[two24four]

Now they Jays play awesome ball again when it means nothing.

Another great game by Halladay last night, he had a no hitter going till the 6th.

Hill & Lind also adding to there great seasons.

[phaneuf6]

Too bad Halladay couldn't do more damage to Ortiz.

[b_illin]

Good on Roy for plunking Ortiz - I'm going to miss him!

---------------------


Jays turn on Cito: Reports (http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/704347)
The Toronto Blue Jays are about to end a disappointing season on a very sour note. Players are fed up with Cito Gaston and ready to make it known they do not want the manager to return next season, according to two published reports this morning.
"It's nearly a mutiny right now," one source said in a report published at Foxsports.com. "He has lost the entire team."
According to a story by The Canadian Press, players have spoken about the situation over the past few weeks, but only if their names were not used. CP reports some players wanted to speak to senior team officials first – and to avoid the news leaking while the team was playing home.
The Blue Jays begin their final series of the season tonight in Baltimore.
One player told CP there was simply "constant negativity" coming from the manager's office. Another noted that Gaston once said "there aren't any good players in here."
Gaston's in-game decision making has also been a target of criticism this season, as it was during first tenure as Jays manager from 1989-97.
One player was asked by CP how many others felt the same way, he replied: "Just about everyone."
Gaston addressed the way he's handled his players this season after the team's final home game on Sunday.
"If guys aren't happy with whatever happened here, then they're looking at the wrong person," Gaston said.
"If they're unhappy, they have to look at themselves, because I certainly treated everybody in a way that I'd like to be treated as a player and how I'd like my manager to treat me. If they're grumbling, they're grumbling because they didn't do their jobs. They had opportunities."
The Blue Jays (75-84) are in fourth place in the American League East, but have won six straight games.
Gaston returned to the Jays in June 2008 after the club fired John Gibbons after a 35-39 start. Gaston led the Jays to a 51-37 finish and continued that success into this season, starting the year at 27-14. But the team couldn't keep that pace and quickly fell out of the playoff chase.
WOW!

[two24four]

I read this is as well, I cant believe it. Lind wont like this, he's always sitting next to Cito before he goes up to bat to get his plan together before he hits.

Time to just clean house I guess, just get rid of everyone again, coaches, GM etc....let Beeston do his thing.

[b_illin]

Gaston Disparaged Anonymously (http://thestar.blogs.com/baseball/2009/10/gaston-disparaged-anonymously.html)

A Fox Sports report (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10157294/Sources:-Players-don%27t-want-Cito-back-in-%2710) by Ken Rosenthal this morning claims that virtually the entire Jays' clubhouse is in agreement that manager Cito Gaston needs to go. He has lost everyone, says the source. Since Rosenthal is not around the Jays' clubhouse and has very rarely quoted any Jays' players directly in recent years, this "clubhouse insider" information has to come from someone in the Jays' front office.
Here's a clue. Needing confirmation for the column, Rosenthal claims he was unable to reach GM J.P. Ricciardi for comment. If it's true that he was unable to contact the GM that would be a first. This has the feel of a Ricciardi scud missile on his way out the door.
A Canadian Press piece by Shi Davidi followed up on the same theme (http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/704347), quoting unnamed players interviewed on the final weekend as being upset with Gaston and his "lack of communication, old-school approach and negativism."
That sounds bad. Let's see, if an entire team wants a manager out of the way, the usual strategy is that a team quits playing for him and virtually mails in the results. Unfortunately for the conspirators, the Jays have won six in a row and nine of 10 and have returned to the offensive juggernaut numbers of April and May - and even beyond that production. Way to deliver a message to management boys.
No, some significant discontent is definitely there towards Gaston, but it is far from as rampant as Rosenthal insists it is. When the New York Yankees visited Toronto September 3-6, they already knew about the clubhouse anger. The links are former Jays Josh Towers, A.J. Burnett and Eric Hinske, who heard about it from friends with the Jays. The knowledge of the discontent has certainly permeated the Jays' clubhouse. They have all heard it, but for young players trying to establish themselves and fit in, stating that position and adopting it as their own would be professional suicide.
So if guys like Adam Lind, Travis Snider, Aaron Hill, Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Jason Frasor, Jesse Carlson and every one of the young starting pitchers has likely listened to the leaders of this revolt without offering comment that does not mean they are among those ready to burn Cito at the stake. For the most part, they are earning close to the major-league minimum salary and have long careers to look forward to.
The leadership of the revolt likely comes from the bullpen and likely started with the treatment of B.J. Ryan as he struggled to regain his form at spring training and was subsequently released.
At spring training Gaston threw Ryan under the bus during a trip to Orlando to play the Braves. He discussed the diminishing returns issue and scratched his head over Ryan's loss of velocity, even though he was healthy. The baton of explanation was immediately passed to a distressed pitching coach Brad Arnsberg, who while trying to defend his friend B.J., inadvertently backed the bus up over Ryan and moved forward, crushing him again. That was the beginning of the end.
The soap opera moved to Minnesota in April. After a failed Ryan appearance, Arnsberg snapped on the media, saying that he was never asked positive questions about his pitchers. It was always negative. That he had to deal with his pitchers every day and didn't want to comment on failure. He was still shaken by the spring training "loss of velocity" discussion.
The major-league bullpen is a virtual social club during every one of 162 games. They have six innings to sit and chat before two of them have to get up and start getting loose. The pitching coach is the father figure. Arnsberg treats all his pitchers like sons. When one of their bullpen family is mistreated by the manager, or anyone else, they all feel the pain.
Fast forward to Yankee Stadium in July. By that time B.J. Ryan had become an afterthought in the manager's mind. Despite what Cito had protested to me earlier in the year, that he "likes his own pitchers" but doesn't like other teams' hurlers, it doesn't fly. Gaston, a hitter, loves his hitters and is loyal to them. He allowed Alex Rios and Vernon Wells to bat third and fourth in the order this year until it was impossible to leave the underproducing pair there. He does it out of loyalty. That's old school. Pitchers see that loyalty. In the Yankee clubhouse, Ryan challenged his manager. He said he needed to pitch more to be effective but he understood that to pitch more he needed to be effective. He expressed frustration. When asked about it, Gaston scoffed and the next day the Jays released Ryan and ate his remaining $15 million.
Gaston is not patient with pitchers. Scott Downs, a good friend of Ryan's and another of Arnsberg's disciples, has been the latest whipping boy for Gaston. He took over from Ryan as closer, then got hurt and was replaced by Jason Frasor, came back and got hurt again. The last time he was hurt it was in leaving the mound to cover first, and he strained a hamstring. The manager and trainer George Poulis went to the mound to check on Downs. When Cito found out his pitcher was hurt again, Gaston strode back to the dugout, leaving the trainer and injured reliever to hobble off the field. It seemed strange at the time, but seems to be part of the mutual discontent that has clearly developed.
It comes down to this. There are many villains and few heroes in this Jays' piece. In hindsight, that's exactly the way their disappointing season has gone. Many changes will be made.

ppp

[CayugaPosse]

I read this is as well, I cant believe it. Lind wont like this, he's always sitting next to Cito before he goes up to bat to get his plan together before he hits.

Time to just clean house I guess, just get rid of everyone again, coaches, GM etc....let Beeston do his thing.

I'm surprised this comes as a surprise.

Cito Gaston is a terrible baseball manager. I've been saying that all year. Granted, the development of him telling the entire locker room "there isn't a single good player in here" is new, I thought he was good at managing emotions of players.

But in game he's a joke, and apparantly according to Wilner that's not even a turn of phrase, the Jays literally joke about stupid shit he does in games.

All you have to do is look at this season to see it : Wells batting cleanup for half a year. Rios in the three hole for months. The lack of pinch hitting in obvious spots. The way he's handled Jesse Carlson all year. The lack of Randy Ruiz playing even now that the Jays are out of anything and all logic and any rational, sentient human being would realize it's a time to start getting a look at Ruiz and Snider to see what they have...especially when Ruiz is showing promise.

He's done a terrible job, and he deserves to be fired.

[CayugaPosse]

Well I guess this is a happy day for most of you :

JP Riccairdi is done as the GM of the Jays.

[b_illin]

That suggest Griffin may have been onto something by suggesting JP fired that torpedo about Cito....a parting shot. What a dick either way.

[two24four]

It was time. Let's hope they bring someone in who's not a 1st time GM. Gillick anyone.

[CayugaPosse]

That suggest Griffin may have been onto something by suggesting JP fired that torpedo about Cito....a parting shot. What a dick either way.

Are you really blaming JP Riccairdi for leaking the Cito thing?

Are we really THAT against this guy we'll blame him for anything?

By the way, if you haven't heard anyone anywhere, the team has gone public, Wells confirmed reports that alot of the team hates Cito...including Halladay, himself, and Hill as three of the most vocal against him.

[two24four]

Like I said before, it's time for a shake up after this LONG season, I think everyone should be let go, bring in a new group of coaches, GM etc....start fresh again, let these players enjoy coming to the park again, because there really is alot of great ball players on this team.

[two24four]

Nice to see Aaron Hill get AL comeback player of the year.

[Roy Hinske]

I thought it was great for Hill to get some recognition. He has become an elite 2B IMO.

[keys2aFranchise]

From early October; I don' think this was posted in here.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/baseball/2009/10/04/11293516.html#/sports/columnists/bob_elliott/2009/10/05/pf-11302471.html

[two24four]

Great news, Beeston is staying on full time as the president and CEO. I love this.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=296279

[b_illin]

Me too...but I am not as happy as Paul and his lip herpes it seems!

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/89/40/efebcd7a4626aa38f499bd3bf3b6.jpeg

[two24four]

With JP now gone, I think the Jays should try & trade for Dunn, he would make a great DH.

[secol]

i don't see much sense in washington moving him now though?

[two24four]

i don't see much sense in washington moving him now though?

No I agree, inless he wants out, like I have said forever, I just want to see Dunn with the Jays, damn JP & his big yap, he might have signed here last offseason when he was a FA.

[secol]

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/photos/MLB/TOR/MLB_Wells_small.jpg
The Toronto Sun reports that the Chicago Cubs are eyeing Vernon Wells in a Milton Bradley trade.
"It's early on, but we think this one has some legs," said one Cubs official. "But they aren't the only team we are talking with." The Cubs' idea is to split the difference on Wells' $107 million over six years and Bradley's $21 million the next two years, with each team absorbing $43 million. It would take a lot of work to make a deal happen, but it may be the only way Toronto can wiggle out of the Wells contract.


that would be awesome lol

[two24four]

Report: Wells could be traded to Cubs for Bradley.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2009/10/31/jays_cubs/

Edit: haha, I see secol made a post at the same time.

[secol]

Updating a previous item, Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune reports that the Cubs have denied rumors of a possible Milton Bradley-for-Vernon Wells trade.
The Cubs quickly responded to a report in Saturday's Toronto Sun, saying the rumor has "no legs at all." The Cubs are reportedly looking to unload Milton Bradley this winter, but acquiring Vernon Wells in order to do it would clearly be the wrong strategy.

too bad :(

[two24four]

Jays might trade Overbay to ARI for C Chris Snyder.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=297543

[dw13]

Jays might trade Overbay to ARI for C Chris Snyder.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=297543

I like Chris Snyder. Seen alot of him in my day. Barajas a FA right?

[moans]

Jays might trade Overbay to ARI for C Chris Snyder.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=297543


I'd be a big fan of that. Hopefully AA can get it done. I'm sure Kam somewhere is praying that this deal doesn't go through.

[two24four]

Yeah Barajas is a FA.

I wonder if they will move Lind to 1B.

[b_illin]

I don't know if Snyder is worth that kind of dough - if the dude can only manage a .333 OBP in the NL West, what makes anyone think he will be at all effective in the AL East?

I'd rather keep Overbay, find a C on the cheap (which we seem to have been able to do these last few yrs) and trade Overbay during the season. Makes more sense than taking on Snyder for another 2-3 yrs.

[b_illin]

That trade was called off due to concerns over Snyder's back.

[two24four]

I still think they move Overbay before the 2010 season starts.

Also Zaun was let go by T-Bay today, I wonder if Alex will bring him back.

[secol]

lol possible three team deal with overbay/bradley/castillo (mets) involved

[two24four]

The Mets and Philly are trying to trade for Halladay. Philly just wont stop till the get him.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2009/11/11/halladay_trade_rumours/

[keys2aFranchise]

I read yesterday that Philly is unlikely.

http://zozone.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/11/debbie_downer_says_no_halladay.html

[b_illin]

If the Phillies had traded for Doc, maybe they'd have won the WS. :D

[Shady6833]

If the Phillies had traded for Doc, maybe they'd have won the WS. :D

They would have won the World Series, Plus we would have got Happ. Another reason I'm glad Ricarddi is gone.

[two24four]

They are saying on the Fan 590 that the Yanks are doing anything they can to land Halladay, nothing new I guess :lol:

[eff1ngham]

I don't know if Snyder is worth that kind of dough - if the dude can only manage a .333 OBP in the NL West, what makes anyone think he will be at all effective in the AL East?

Because the NL West had the best pitching in all of baseball last year. LA and SF lead the majors in ERA and WHIP, and Colroado was top 10. Having to face those staffs all year is tough. Outside of the Yankees, the AL East had bad pitching. Boston and Tampa were sub par, outside of Halladay Toronto was bad, and Baltimore was terrible

[two24four]

I know he wont come cheap, and it looks like the Jays are rebuilding again, but I would love to see them sign Jason Bay sometime next week when he beomes a FA. I also wont be shocked if he signs with the Mariners as he lives there in the off season, or just resign in BOS.

[b_illin]

Because the NL West had the best pitching in all of baseball last year. LA and SF lead the majors in ERA and WHIP, and Colroado was top 10. Having to face those staffs all year is tough. Outside of the Yankees, the AL East had bad pitching. Boston and Tampa were sub par, outside of Halladay Toronto was bad, and Baltimore was terrible

He's a career .333 dude.

[dw13]

He's a career .333 dude.

.333 OBP and can handle a pitching staff at a high level? I'd take it.

[keys2aFranchise]

FWIW- Barajas' OBP last year was .258 and has a career OBP is .284

[b_illin]

FWIW, I am not saying Snyder is shit, I am saying I think we can get more for Overbay...if we are going to take on contract, I want more....or i'd just keep him and deal him at the deadline next year. It's not keeping him around is going to fuck our season or anything....and he and Lind can rotate between DH and 1B which would give Lind time to get 1B figured out without immense pressure.

[eff1ngham]

He's a career .333 dude.

Against NL West. That means he'd tear up the AL East

[keys2aFranchise]

FWIW, I am not saying Snyder is shit, I am saying I think we can get more for Overbay...if we are going to take on contract, I want more....or i'd just keep him and deal him at the deadline next year. It's not keeping him around is going to fuck our season or anything....and he and Lind can rotate between DH and 1B which would give Lind time to get 1B figured out without immense pressure.

what do you honestly expect the Jays to be able to get for a guy that puts up below average offensive numbers for his position and makes 7 million per year?

Surely they could find another player who makes less cash to help Lind out at 1b....that or maybe hire a coach.

[phaneuf6]

what do you honestly expect the Jays to be able to get for a guy that puts up below average offensive numbers for his position and makes 7 million per year?

Surely they could find another player who makes less cash to help Lind out at 1b....that or maybe hire a coach.

Yeah, considering Overbay's position combined with his stats, he's not going to be a hot commodity come the deadline.

[Shady6833]

I know he wont come cheap, and it looks like the Jays are rebuilding again, but I would love to see them sign Jason Bay sometime next week when he beomes a FA. I also wont be shocked if he signs with the Mariners as he lives there in the off season, or just resign in BOS.

I could see him resigning in BOS cause I'm sure he wants to win a championship, but damn would it be nice for him to come home man.

[b_illin]

I'm not saying Overbay is a hot commodity, but let's be fucking serious, we're talking about the guy who is the backup catcher in ARZ who has a longer contract that pays out more than what we owe Overbay. That's been my point.

[moans]

I wouldn't mind dealing double play Overbay with a catcher with some pop. If we can get Arizona to eat some of the contract then we should make the deal. He's certainly an upgrade over Barajas and he'll be a good stopgap until Arencibia is ready.

[two24four]

I wouldn't mind dealing double play Overbay with a catcher with some pop. If we can get Arizona to eat some of the contract then we should make the deal. He's certainly an upgrade over Barajas and he'll be a good stopgap until Arencibia is ready.

They checked Snyder out though after his back injury & did not like what they saw, so Iam glad they did not make this deal if he's not healthy.

These days I dont think we will get much back for Overbay.

[two24four]

Looks like Halladay will be gone before the start of the 2010 season.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=299259

[two24four]

Sound like the LAAAA are back in talks for Halladay.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=299699

[dw13]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4687981

[b_illin]

The BoSox can have him if they want, but wow will they have to pay up (and extra)!

[keys2aFranchise]

The BoSox can have him if they want, but wow will they have to pay up (and extra)!

why would it cost extra? In a year the Jays have ZERO say where he goes, they just need to take the best offer regardless of which team makes it.

[b_illin]

why would it cost extra? In a year the Jays have ZERO say where he goes, they just need to take the best offer regardless of which team makes it.

because it will take some extra incentive to deal him within the division when we could deal him out west or to an NL team.

[keys2aFranchise]

because it will take some extra incentive to deal him within the division when we could deal him out west or to an NL team.

AA has said if the offers are similar then yah you send him to another division or league but if the best offer comes from within the division then you have to take that offer.

Best offer doesn't mean more or extra.

[two24four]

No if they deal Halladay to Boston it will be for more then what they would get back I would think from say the LAAAA or the LAD etc...they are not just going to trade him to a team in the division for nothing.

[dw13]

I feel bad for you Jays fans. This is going to end up just like Santana getting traded. You blew it by not moving him last season, and now that his contract is up next season, no one is going to want to break the farm system THEN have to pay him a big contract.

[two24four]

I feel bad for you Jays fans. This is going to end up just like Santana getting traded. You blew it by not moving him last season, and now that his contract is up next season, no one is going to want to break the farm system THEN have to pay him a big contract.

No J.P. blew it not us.

[b_illin]

AA has said if the offers are similar then yah you send him to another division or league but if the best offer comes from within the division then you have to take that offer.

Best offer doesn't mean more or extra.

I'm sorry but I think you're splitting peas. We both agree it will take a better offer...which in my eyes would constitute 'extra' as I said.

[dw13]

No J.P. blew it not us.

Yeah, I know it... either way it was blown unfortunately. Just hope you can salvage a nice deal for him, better than the Twins got for Johan.

[two24four]

Iam sure they will, there seems to be more teams right now after Halladay then there was for Johan back then, so they are all prob going to try & out bid each other for him, Halladay has Philly, NYY, LAAAA, LAD, NYM, BOS all after him.

[b_illin]

Yeah, I think with the weak FA class and Doc being Doc and with a lot of teams looking to one-up the competition, I think we'll get a decent return. Definitely would have been better had we dealt him last year. It's JP's fault but also the rest of the organization for not being more realistic and proactive.

[keys2aFranchise]

I'm sorry but I think you're splitting peas. We both agree it will take a better offer...which in my eyes would constitute 'extra' as I said.

Maybe I am but if the Angels offer B.Wood/M.Izturis and Joe Saunders and Boston offers Bucholtz - then won't the Angels offer be more but Boston's be better?

[two24four]

Maybe I am but if the Angels offer B.Wood/M.Izturis and Joe Saunders and Boston offers Bucholtz - then won't the Angels offer be more but Boston's be better?

Boston will have more to offer then just Bucholtz, you count on that.